Moksha

@PopoyeSailor Without the five sense organs (which are unavoidably physical), the five senses experienced through those organs are no longer possible. A blind man cannot see. On out of body experiences, I referenced that in my recommendation of Return from Tomorrow. I have read quite a few books about this, and that is one of my favorites. That said, I have yet to find reliable objective evidence for any of these claims. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but then again neither is it evidence.

@Nahm In an infinite reality, every possibility, however remote, is eventualized. The universe is not infinite, but considering its vastness, it is statistically impossible that this planet and our species would not exist. Especially when you calculate at the level of the multiverse. Everything we observe is perception and thought. What else could it be? The question is whether consciousness is a byproduct of the brain, or whether consciousness exists beyond the brain. Since nobody has reliably proven consciousness outside of the brain, I am unwilling to accept it as fact. I have experienced it myself, but even so I cannot rule out the subjectivity of my own experience. @Adamq8 Anyone who is honest has no idea what happens after death. My current opinion is that at death our physical bodies, our brains, our emotions, and our personalities dissolve back into the cosmic soup that they came from. I like to think there is consciousness after death (even better, that consciousness simply is, independent of time and space), but that is only a projection at this point.

@Carl-Richard We can observe the brain stopping in others. In a limited sense, we can even observe the brain stopping in ourselves. But it is not the entire brain stopping, just the conditioned part. I am fairly confident that nobody has observed the complete stopping of their brains, at least not reliably or replicably. That said, I recommend Return from Tomorrow by George Ritchie as a fascinating dive into that possibility.

@Adamq8 What you describe is how I feel when I am most present; experience as pure consciousness. But as you say, maybe it is just the brain doing it. We really can't prove either way. One of the early theories of human consciousness (which Aldous Huxley espoused) was the idea that the brain protects itself by acting as a a reducing valve that restricts consciousness. He experimented with mescaline as a way to get past that restriction and achieve greater awareness. Maybe we only use a small percentage of our brain, with most of the horsepower purring unconsciously under the hood. What is hidden there, and how do we awaken it? Maybe the reason it is hidden in the first place is because most of us are incapable of processing reality fully. I have a theory that evolution produced the beautiful hardware of the human brain, and we are only now beginning to upgrade our software to take full advantage of it. I see the next step in human evolution as the capacity to more consciously process reality.

Thank you for sharing the link. If you read through it, the first four sheaths are all tied to the physical body since they require the five sense organs to be active. Only the final sheath, Anandamaya, doesn't reference the senses. But this is only one of many perspectives on ultimate reality. I resonate with eastern philosophy, but I recognize it as such. There is no objective evidence for its claims. For example, I see no reliable evidence for reincarnation.

@Adamq8 The brain maps reality, but it is only a map. This includes the brain trying to map itself (aka metacognition). We can slice someone's head open and observe the brain. We can test how it functions. We can even electrically stimulate different sections of the brain to manipulate emotions and perceptions. But our observations are only that. It is impossible for the brain to directly experience objective reality. Remove the brain, and that person's perception stops. If there is an ultimate intelligence that exists beyond the brain, we cannot conceive it. We can experience it through Being, but whether that experience is a product of the brain or a reflection of ultimate reality is impossible to definitively determine.

What people need is not to philosophize, but to accept the isness of the present moment. Everything else, including the past and the future, is an illusion.

@Persipnei Simply being aware of the ego train, rather than a perpetual passenger, is a good first step @PopoyeSailor Ahoy! Perception is possible because of the electrical firing of our neurons as our sense receptors provide information to our brains. Without that electrical activity, we would no longer perceive anything. Perception is not reality. It is our brain's attempt to map reality and make sense of it. Your green could be my red. That doesn't prove there is no reality, only that we are incapable of objectively perceiving it. The room you are sitting in is not real. The moment you leave it, the room ceases to exist. Yes, there are molecules floating around, but it only becomes a room when your mind makes it that. "Room" is a concept of the mind; it is not objective reality. The perennial question: If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest#:~:text="If a tree falls in,questions regarding observation and perception.

@Leo Gura

Lol, touche. In fairness, I did say, "However, it does let you tap into a deeper Source of intelligence to help you do those things". The difference is that we are no longer attached to the fruits of our actions. Not to say we can't enjoy them for what they are

That is a beautiful way of describing it, and yes, that is how is feels. I experience it daily, but am far from being in a constant state of presence. It is always there, but the limitations of my little self often keep me from Being. I suppose that is why the masters describe the enlightenment process as a path.

Thank you for your answer. I agree that enlightenment won't buy you a house or pay your bills. However, it does let you tap into a deeper Source of intelligence to help you do those things. I believe, and have experienced, that it is a journey that engenders more love, more creativity, more wisdom, and less suffering in my life.

As I see it, there is only one Self-realization, which is the experience of yourself as consciousness in the present moment. It is abundant, healing, and beautiful, and it is completely nonconceptual. There is a multitude of self-realizations as well. In the course of practicing presence, I've become aware of the many ways my ego tries to lure me back into the labyrinth of my conditioned mind. I recognize the warning signs more quickly, and am getting better at catching myself before being sucked back into unconsciousness. But it happens far more than I wish were the case. I'm learning patience It is a progressive journey of enlightenment; there is joy in it, and my life is already so much better than it used to be.

@Someone here If you don't mind me asking, how does any of this apply to your life? I understand that you believe you are God and everything (including your so-called life) is an illusion, But are there any pragmatic implications to your realization? Do you suffer less as a result? Are you more loving, more humble, more patient, and more at peace in your life? Is all of this conceptual or has it meaningfully improved the quality of your life? If you have experienced less suffering and more joy, do you see this upward trajectory continuing for the rest of your life and if so why?

Ego is complete identification with the conditioned mind. Awakening is the experiential realization that you are not the conditioned mind. You are consciousness itself. Enlightenment is the spiritual practice of learning to stay awake, until the ego is completely dissolved. People sometimes mistake ego for arrogance. It can manifest in that way, but it is the complete complex of aversions and desires that distract us from the experience of ourselves as consciousness. It is always divisive, and is insidiously adept at seizing our awareness and plummeting us back into unconsciousness. Ultimately, all suffering is the result of the ego. Pain is unavoidable, but pain is different from suffering. Suffering results from a refusal to accept the isness of the present moment, and live in the Now.

What I'm referring to as the path of enlightenment is a steadily increasing capacity to be present regardless of our circumstances. Most of us awaken to who we are, and then rather quickly return to unconsciousness for a time until we reawaken. The conditioned mind is relentless in demanding our attention, and even people that have awakened, frequently fall back into identifying with their mind. The practice is to stay conscious more and more, until we are always awake. The fruits of presence are enjoyed along the path. The more steadily awake we are, the less suffering we will experience. Eventually we reach the point where we are always still, and are permanently free of suffering:

Infinite awareness doesn't instantly dissolve our attachments and permanently relieve our suffering. For most humans, dissolving requires time. The path to enlightenment is the practice of presence in our lives. It is the journey from ajnana to jnana to vijnana.

How can there be a path to enlightenment if everything is already enlightened?

@Adamq8 My brain respectfully disagrees

Enlightenment is 1) realizing that you are awareness, and 2) dissolving your desires through the radiance of that awareness. Awakening is the first step toward enlightenment, and the ensuing path is the deepening of that awareness that eventually leads to the end of suffering. Babies, puppies, and trees are beautiful because of their isness. But I don't consider them to be enlightened, since they are incapable of realization.

0 is nothing. 1 is everything. Infinity is nothing and everything.

Infinity is not just hard for the human mind to understand; it is impossible. I experience infinity in the transcendent dimension, but I don't understand it. Any human experience is unavoidably subjective. We can't experience anything without a brain. When our brain stops functioning, our awareness presumably stops as well. Maybe there is an ultimate awareness outside of the human brain, but if so it is impossible to prove it. Any proof inevitably derives from the brain itself.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Aldous Huxley famously experimented with mescaline over a long period of his life. His early experience, which he described in The Doors of Perception, felt enlightening, but he later decided that it was a dangerous distraction: His spiritual teacher did not approve of these experiments. However, he continued to conduct them and near the end of his life he concluded:

Bingo. This is why conceptual discussions are ultimately recursive. They can be fun, but the only knowledge they reveal is that there is no knowledge. Enlightenment is experiential, not conceptual. Being aware in stillness, without interruptions from the conditioned mind, is beautiful and it is healing. It is the beginning of the end of suffering, and that is all that matters.

@VeganAwake @Adamq8 Yes. Experiencing the Self is wonderful. It feels like infinite, loving, healing, awareness. It is a personal experience, not a conceptualization. I have no idea if it is ultimate reality, or a product of my unconscious mind. It is impossible to know. I feel freedom, am able to tap into deeper intelligence and creativity, and most importantly, I suffer less in my life; that is all that matters to me.