Moksha

@commie Since when is reality a strawman? The isness of things speaks for itself. If you are going to claim that everything is an illusion, the burden of proof is on you. I'm happy to admit that I don't know anything, except the one thing that can be known. Talking to someone that is real is sane; talking to someone that is not real is insane. If I am an illusion, why are you wasting your time spinning in insanity? If you are so convinced that everything is an illusion, why do you behave as if everything is real? Are you willing to step in front of a train today, since you know the train is only an illusion?

@Javfly33 You don't have to create a paradigm of reality for it to exist. Whether or not you perceive it, reality is.

Enlightenment is experiential and nonconceptual. It is the only "knowledge" that cannot be an illusion.

@4201 I agree, but it is less plausible that the tree is fake than that it is real. Not that plausibility is ultimate proof of anything. As the philosophers are fond of pointing out, the only thing we know is that we know nothing. Still, people claiming that everything is an illusion don't seem to believe their own claims. Somehow most of them continue eating, suffering, and trying not to die.

Nothing can be ultimately proven. I could just be dreaming about the tree and about the apple and about you, or all of this could be your dream instead. But that possibility seems far less likely than that the material world is real. If you disagree, why are you taking imaginary time to discuss imaginary concepts with imaginary people in the first place?

It's called science

If there wasn't an objective tree, I wouldn't be able to observe it, sit under it, or pluck an apple from its branches. Nor would you be able to do the same, and come back to talk with me about it.

Observation. When a tree falls, it produces measurable sound waves. However, these sound waves don't actually sound like anything. If you are standing there, they travel through your ear canal, toward the organ of Corti, where they interact with hair cells which release neurotransmitter at synapses with the auditory nerve, which sends the information to the auditory cortex, which interprets the information for the first time as a sound. Sound as it is understood by sensation cannot exist without a perceiver.

No, sound is the interpretation your brain makes of the air wave. The same is true for our other senses. When you look at a tree, your brain creates a sensory image that interprets the tree, but is not the tree. And for all we know, your sensory image could be completely different from mine.

@mandyjw An unobserved tree falling in the forest doesn't make a sound because sound is a sense perception. It only becomes a sound when there is a sensor to interpret the air waves. That doesn't mean the tree isn't real. Atoms are real. Space is real. Time is real. Just because they are relative to the perceiver doesn't mean they are unreal. Einstein said that, "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility...The fact that it is comprehensible is a miracle.” From an ultimate perspective though, everything we try to comprehend is a false duality. Real vs. Unreal, Diversity vs. Unity, Time vs. Timeless are all dualistic concepts. That is why ultimate reality is beyond human comprehension.

Enlightenment is not just a realization. It is a purification. Are you free from all attachments and suffering? If not, yoga is your friend.

People have been asking this question for as long as there have been people. Nobody knows the answer.

Nobody knows what happens after death. A student asks a Zen master: “Don’t you know if there’s life after death? Aren’t you a Zen master?” The Zen master replies: “Sure, but I’m not a dead Zen master!” The human form and personality dissolves at death. Indian religions believe in reincarnation, but that is speculation. Pema Chodron thinks there is a karmic imprint of the person at death, but that too is speculation. All we really know is the experiential realization that the essence of who we are is eternal and beyond death. I like this pointer:

@Someone here Einstein:

The material world is real. Matter and energy exist, but not in the way we perceive them to exist. The chair you are sitting on is not a solid object; it is actually a tiny amount of matter that is held together by energy. The human body is 99.9% empty space. If we lost all the dead space inside our atoms, the entire human species would fit into the volume of a sugar cube. When enlightened people say the world is an illusion, they aren't referring to matter itself. The illusion is the identification with and attachment to the material world. Source exists underneath and shines through the material world, but we are not the material world. We are the essence and light of the world.

@Leo Nordin Eckhart Tolle was homeless for a period of time. He spent 3 years just sitting on park benches and observing the world around him. He would stay with friends. When he first started teaching, the audiences were very small. Once he only had a single person show up, but he still taught. Of course, everything changed after the publication of the "Power of Now". Everything except Eckhart himself. While writing the book, he had no idea if it would help anyone else. He believed that if the book was not successful, he would be equally happy selling tomatoes. He has a lot of money now, but donates much of it anonymously, and more importantly he is not attached to it. He appreciates it for what it is, but is not owned by his possessions.

@Leo Nordin The Universe has a way of guiding you to the correct balance between meditation and teaching, based on what is needed in the moment. For example, Eckhart Tolle spent the first 3 years following his awakening in contemplation. It was only then that he felt the Universe driving him toward teaching others. Teaching is really about transparency, so the light of Source can shine through you. A few of my favorite pointers:

@KaRzual

Life free from attachments is not nihilistic. It is the path to enduring wisdom, peace, and happiness. And it is only realized through regular effort and personal growth. I've only had a taste so far, but it is the most delicious feast of my life. Slowly my attachments are dissolving, along with the suffering that they create. Read the second chapter of the Bhagavad Gita if you want a real answer to your question:

A nice quote on knowledge vs. wisdom from Eckhart Tolle:

Enlightenment can only come from within. People can provide pointers, but it's impossible to be enlightened by someone else. Aldous Huxley on the pursuit of self-knowledge through drugs:

After enlightenment: meditate and teach. Why meditate? The Buddha, who achieved Nirvana at age 40, regularly meditated until he died at age 80. On summer retreats, he would often go into seclusion for days at a time in order to declutter his mind. The Buddha was enlightened, but he was still human. The human mind has a perpetual pull to revert to conditioned thoughts. Like a garden, it needs regular tending. Why teach? To participate in the evolving expression of Consciousness, and thereby help others end their suffering.

@VeganAwake I agree with you. In the case of some though, I would call the obstacle the "knowledge of illusion". People realize that the world of form is illusory, but they stop there. That realization alone is not enlightenment, nor is it wisdom. Out of context, it is nihilistic solipsism. There is no purpose or value in it. What about Maya is illusion? It's not the world of form itself, but identification with the world of form. The illusion is that we are only humans, rather than humans Being. The Source pervades the universe, and is the essence of everything. Humans are not just one form of that expression; we are the next step in the evolutionary process of Consciousness becoming aware of itself. Rather than dismissing human life as an illusion, why not recognize it for the beautiful thing that it is? Enlightenment is the realization of the Source within us and within everything. It is the practice of allowing Source to dissolve the attachments and aversions that are the reason for our suffering. It is becoming transparent so that Source, which is our true Self, can shine through as the light of the world. What higher purpose or value could there be?

@actualizing25 The only thing we can understand is that reality is beyond understanding. Why do people focus on the epiphany, rather than on the enlightenment? It's less effort I suppose, but you get what you pay for.

You are describing the fundamental difference between knowledge and wisdom. From what I've seen in this forum, the large majority are focused on the former rather than the latter. It's all about "Oh my God, I AM GOD!!!!", and nothing about how that epiphany translates to a more abundant life. What is the point in pursuing the "path of understanding" if it doesn't dissolve your attachments and free you from suffering? The Buddha taught only about suffering and liberation from suffering. That is the true path of enlightenment. Everything else is a distraction.