Moksha

The conversation seems to be drifting in the direction of identity rather than free will, but maybe that's what the universe intended. Snakes and every other being are created by and infused with Source, just at different frequencies. Source is the essence of the rocks, the trees, and us.

Did you see my answers to your specific arguments back on page 2?

Where does free will come from? Do you have an answer? How is it even possible for people to be free, outside of their biology and conditioning? If you strip the human form away, all that is left is Consciousness itself. There is no "you" or "me" making decisions; there is only Consciousness manifesting through us. And "we" have no choice how it manifests because "we" don't exist. When I touch a hot stove, the sensory receptors in my skin trigger an action potential, which moves along the sensory fiber from my skin to my spinal cord and activates a motor neuron that projects to my biceps, causing it to contract. It has to work that quickly because making a conscious "choice" would take too long. I'm not sure what that has to do with Consciousness being infinitely intelligent? I press the brake when I see a red light because my mind has been conditioned to respond in that way. No different from a dog salivating when it sees food, or in Pavlov's experiments, when it hears a bell while seeing food. Who is the "me" doing the controlling? If I had never been taught to associate a red light with stopping, do you think I would still stop?

I was raised in a society where uncontrolled sex is looked down upon. My mind was conditioned, and I had no choice in the conditioning. If free will is possible, where does it come from? Someone could claim God gave them free will, but if that is the case why would God give some people the kind of free will that chooses right and leads to salvation, but give other people the kind of free will that chooses evil and leads to damnation? Note: Feel free (heh) to replace God with the Universe, Consciousness, or anything else that could be said to create us.

@SS10 It was a trap; you can't prove a negative You can prove a positive, though. If you want to claim that free will exists, where is your proof? How would free will even work? Where do you think the freedom comes from? Can you offer any examples of a choice that is actually free?

False premise. Everything <> Nothing. Time <> Timeless. Form <> Formless.

Eternity is not endlessness. It is timelessness. There is no suffering outside of time.

You're assuming I was referring to you. I wasn't. On what you actually did say, I was referring to this: Reincarnation is a belief.

Disprove this: Everything is inevitable.

The ego will do anything to avoid death, including posing as an enlightened being. If you have an identity around being enlightened, that is different from actually being enlightened.

^^^ Belief.

So the Buddha taught the end of suffering but didn't believe the end of suffering?

The human form is beautiful. I was referring to dissolving the conditioning that comes along with it.

Even then, he believed in suffering and the end of suffering.

Agree 100%. Enlightenment isn't just realizing who you are, it is integrating who you are with the human form. Or put another way it is disintegrating the human form.

Yes, I have a belief in beliefs. Which is my point. You can't not believe anything. Even not believing is a belief. The idea that there aren't specific people is also a belief. In the ultimate sense, I agree with you; but it's a belief for me too.

Letting go of the causes for our suffering is what enlightenment actually is. Even enlightened people still have beliefs though. Can you name anyone that is 100% free of beliefs and isn't dead?

Absolute open-mindedness requires letting go of everything. Leo talked about testing, but testing is based on underlying assumptions about reality. If you let go even of the assumptions, everything is equally plausible. Why would you want to do that? The idea that absolute open-mindedness is desirable is a value judgment in its own right. You can't avoid making assumptions. At best, the most open-minded can choose the assumptions that are the foundation for testing their beliefs.

Love vs. selfishness. The ego wants to feel special, which is what selfishness is. Fear is the fuel the ego uses to feed itself, but the core of it is selfishness.

I've heard the opposite. Enlightened people are masters at not falling for the illusions of the mind. Eckhart Tolle talks about a guru that took a handful of drugs, and while he may have had a lot of images flashing through his brain, his internal reality was so centered that nothing changed.

I don't believe it's even possible to change yourself. Telling yourself that you can change yourself is another ego trap. We are what happens to us. This thread is happening to you right now. Maybe you will change because of it.

@Muhammad Jawad Who is happier than a child? Consciousness isn't attached to anything, which is a blessing and a curse. It doesn't suffer, but it also doesn't sense. Perhaps this is why it creates the world of form:

@Muhammad Jawad Why did you create Maya in the first place? There is playfulness in manifestation. You enjoy the game of discovering yourself. You love creating a multitude of forms, and manifesting yourself through them. That is your ultimate purpose.

The Bhagavad Gita and other scriptures are full of teachings that point both to the nature of God and to the path to God. If by Absolute you are referring to Ultimate Realty, any attempt to describe it is bound to failure. It is beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend. The ancient Hindus referred to it as simply Tat, which means "That". That is why it is called the Mystery.

@RedLine I tried scrolling through the video to find what you're referring to, but I'm guessing it's a visual pointer. Concepts can arise from any of the senses, but they are still just concepts. Which doesn't disqualify them from being pointers. Even the tree in my backyard is a conceptual image in my brain, yet it points me to the deep I. Every teaching is, and only can be, conceptual. It can point at ultimate reality but by definition it cannot be ultimate reality. That doesn't make it useless.