Moksha

@Lews Therin Ultimate truth is best realized through stories, parables, and myths The Tao cannot be named, only directly experienced. Given that limitation, these are the best pointers we as humans can create, outside of nature itself.

No hostility here, bro I wasn't referring to you. I was just calling out the sneakiness of the ego. Any time I catch myself judging another person, or judging myself in comparison to another person, it is always my ego. Letting go of judgment has been one of my spiritual practices. I don't usually like to get into discussions of free will, since it can feel confusing or even threatening to people. Some people may want to avoid this paragraph for that reason When I said every color is inevitable, I was giving a nod to this. One color cannot exist without every other color existing. The rainbow dissolves unless each of its colors is present. Whatever color we are is the color Consciousness has chosen for us. If we are intended to move to a new color, Consciousness will paint us there. This is no personal achievement in spiritual growth. There is no reason for pride that we are X or shame that we are Y. I don't talk about this much, since it isn't usually useful. People need a sense that they are exerting effort, and making choices to grow. And they actually are, but not for the reason they think they are. The illusion that "we" are moving up the hierarchy of spiritual growth is fine, as long as "we" don't take too much credit for it. Thank you again for sharing the primer on spiral dynamics. I enjoyed reading it, and considering how each color relates to different layers of identity that have conditioned me over the years. In that sense, I find spiral dynamics a useful multi-dimensional mirror for personal growth. This forum has taught me valuable lessons about teaching others. Unrequested instruction tends to fall on deaf ears at best, or to invoke hostility at worst. Also, it is important to teach in the language of the learner. Sometimes I share things that seem to go over people's heads. It is not that I am "higher" than they are; it is a language barrier. Things that seem obvious to you or me may not make sense to someone else. I remember reading The Power of Now, and dismissing it as drivel. The book stayed on my shelf for years, but when I read it again, everything suddenly made sense. The book didn't change; I changed. I was ready for the teaching. Rather than labeling someone a certain color, perhaps it would be useful for those wanting to participate to find the color(s) that best reflect(s) their current experience. We can be a resource for them to bounce questions and get feedback, but it will be helpful if they are at the helm. There is a place for teaching, but meaningful growth always comes from within. I'm sure you know all this already. I'm only suggesting it as a framework for our community, should we go down the spiral dynamic rabbit hole.

@Lews Therin It is the fourth and final dhyana, the ultimate realization of the sublime state of Consciousness. Most of us do not realize it in this life. The separate personality is lost. The Buddha returned from it, wearing a shadow shroud that clothed him in humanity, but it was so thin that his radiance transfigured him. Siddhartha dissolved in the fourth dhyana, and The Buddha arose from it. It wasn't until 45 years later that he entered Parinirvana. Mara, the evil one, who had tried to tempt him from enlightenment 45 years ago, returned to him. You have accomplished what you set out to do, Mara said. Give up this life and enter Parinirvana [complete Nirvana] now. Do not trouble yourself, Evil One, the Buddha replied. In three months I will pass away and enter Nirvana. Then The Buddha, clearly and mindfully, renounced his will to live on. Three months later, he called his monks to him and spoke with them. His final words: All compounded things are subject to decay. Strive with diligence. Serenely, he passed into Parinirvana.

Yes This is the meaning of even-mindedness, or the realization of serenity. Everything is just a form. Thoughts and beliefs are forms. Drives and appetites are forms. Addictions and emotions are forms. The entire physical world, including our own body, is a multiplicity of forms. Waking up doesn't banish the forms. It is the dawning of Consciousness, which reveals all forms to be the illusion that they are. This realization is the beginning of enlightenment. When the light shines long enough, the forms become so distant and so transparent, that they no longer have any attachment to you. You directly realize that every duality is necessary. There is no good without evil, no foreground without background, no existence without non-existence. With infinite expression, these dualities eventuate in transience. Transience is illusion. That realization is what ultimately liberates us. We no longer resist the inevitable, or are identified by it. We transcend the illusion. The massive energy that used to feed our false identity is sucked back into the Self, like a collapsing black hole. You become the infinitely creative Consciousness that You always are. Welcome back to Singularity.

Mark of the beast. Everything gets better from there So many inspiring soul snapshots, please keep them coming!

Save yourself 1,000 words and post a picture in this thread that captures how you feel. I got a mental image a few days ago, and just came across this image which resonates beautifully:

@Lews Therin Yes, what you describe is what most of us experience when we wake up. There is still a ship, you just directly realize the lively connection between the ship and everything else. It is beautiful and transformative, but perhaps not the highest stage of consciousness. Ultimate consciousness seems to be more than that. The realization is so complete, that there is no ship or ocean. There is just everything and nothing. This is what I imagine it is like when we physically die. There is only universal consciousness, completely free of any sense of personality. Most of us don't come back from that. Some, like The Buddha and Jesus, do for the purpose of showing us the way.

Thanks for sharing your experience. From my understanding of ultimate Consciousness, it is beyond what most of us can comprehend. Literally, there are no thoughts, memories, or emotions. You become universal Consciousness itself, free from all perspectives. At least, that is how The Buddha describes it.

By suffering, I'm referring to psychological suffering, which is avoidable. Pain is not always avoidable. For all you know, "you" have already been in hell for eternity

1 and 0 are mutually dependent. Neither can be without the other. Underlying both, beyond existence and non-existence, is the undefinable: Tat.

Bingo Creativity is infinite, and every possibility is inevitable. It's all just imagination. You only suffer in hell if you insist on being in heaven.

@nitramadas A kaleidoscope, look forward to playing with it ? Exposing the ego is arguably the best thing that could happen. The worst thing that could happen would be someone clamoring up the color ladder, pointing out how their color is higher than someone else's, and not understanding that every color is inevitable.

After the disidentification, did you have any thoughts, memories, emotions? If so, who was thinking, remembering, feeling?

@Lews Therin Referring to the idea that infinity may be confusing or distressing, given that hell is unavoidable. If you understand that hell cannot exist without heaven, and that heaven too is unavoidable, does that bring you peace?

People spend their entire lives chasing the Truth when all they have to do is be. Hint: If you think you understand anything, you don't.

Let there be dice!

Any hierarchy is a welcome mat for the ego. It sets off my spider senses Laying down the Yield sign, @nitramadas do you have a good link on spiral dynamics besides this one? https://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Merry-Peter-Reflections-SDi-v1-upgrade.pdf

Sounds like the primal fear of death itself. It's a damn hard monster to accept.

Even the now is still a belief, in the sense that it is experienced from a personal perspective. It's the closest most of us can come to ultimate reality

@SoonHei Sorry for the convoluted question What I meant was, do you think people on psychedelics can experience the final stage of enlightenment? Take a look at my post here: https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/56889-is-it-possible-to-erase-the-concept-of-eyes/#comment-762503 People directly realize being connected with everything, and experience that everything is One. They realize being the creative energy of Consciousness. But it is still from a fixed perspective, stretching out to encompass everything else. The spiritual gurus that climb the highest, ultimately separate from any sense of personal identity, and merge into a universally Conscious state. There is no "I" any more; they totally disidentify from any sense of memory or personality or emotion or experience. At the highest level, they actually become the Unity. Have you experienced, or do you know anyone that has, this highest state on psychedelics? Purely out of curiosity, not the desire to try it myself

@SoonHei There's a lot of "I". In that state, what happens when there is no "I"? Not in the "I am everything" sense, but in the nonlocalized 3rd Eye sense. Do people on psychedelics ever experience that?

Mmmm, turtle soup

@abrakamowse Not only that, but they are smart enough not to challenge the angel blocking the road Animals can teach us, if we're willing to listen.

@Lews Therin If you aren't enjoying the nightmare, step out of the dream.

It is possible. The Buddha described four dhyanas, or stages of awareness. Others like John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart, Augustine, and Patanjali have experienced the same mystical journey. The final stage is deadly quiet, like floating aimlessly in deep space. Maybe people that have tried psychedelics understand this to a degree, I can't say. The Buddha realized it through unflinching, one-pointed meditation.