SamC

@mememe It's all jokes my manXDXD don't take my playfulness the wrong way. Lots of love towards you! Have a nice day

@mememe At least I don't have a meme in my name you must be a very reactive shallow person!XDXD

@mememe Then Leo is the head master of selfishness

1: Stop with the ruler techniques, I tried to help you. 2: You need to go full circle

@Preety_India Notice how what you're trying to do, is the same thing as when a man who is a "nice guy" tries to swing the pendulum to the other side and become a mean selfish asshole. You shouldn't try to be selfish, you should try to be more selfless and loving. You need to work to be more selfless with a capital S. Your selflessness right now is not selflessness, its selfishness. Raise your awareness, your self love and work on healing and parts work. That's counterintuitively how you will learn to set firmer boundaries and prioritize yourself more than others. You need to go full circle! Right now you're prioritizing others becuase you're selfish and insecure + feel like you need to do that in order to get love. Notice that!

Lmao

I don't understand what you mean. How is a dense ideological position a feature and not a bug? Well yeah, of course - to a modification. For me to express that I feel missunderstood and that I want to feel understoos is healing. My insecurities comes from enmeshment trauma and not talking about how things feel for me and standing up for my needs/ selling myself short. See, sometimes a part of the healing process is to go with the ride. Should I not get triggered? Well, yes and no, but regardless of what, I need to practice to atleast ask to be understood and by that learn to be okey with not being understood. My first hope in replying to Emerald was for her to Express her trauma and self biases so that I could learn seeing them in myself. She was not intrested in doing that though, which is fine. I'm not trying to attract anyone here XDXD

How is it a predictable feuture? Why is it not a bug. Tell me more, that's sounds interesting XDXD Well, it's only important because I have a trauma around not being understood and that I want to be understood and that I feel even more missunderstood when woman say that men cannot be missunderstood becuase that's my experience, my childhood trauma, that I have been missunderstood. I feel missunderstood by woman and think that I will be healed when woman understand me. @Harlen Kelly

@Preety_India More gaslighting. I do want to understand woman and I think I understand woman a lot better than before.. like for real Preety. I even PM ed you asking for help to understand woman better and you helped me, I genuinely do and if that is not putting in effort I don't know what is. Hell, I even opened up a thread about what I am missing with Jordan Petersen/ feminism and am planning to read books about feminism and more. Stop telling me I don't want to. I know what I want. This just makes me sad and hurt, like come on! I understand that you don't want to open up to the masculine perspective which have hurt you and all that and that you maybe shouldn't becuase it might be dangerous and almost humiliating after the many times Men have done you or other woman wrong, but please don't say that I don't want to understand woman and that I am a hypocrite. I am not!

@Preety_India Fair, but notice that in order to solve a conflict - both parts must be willing to listen.. not just one part. If the other part would already understand there wouldn't be no issue... so either both parts needs to open up and listen to the other part eventhough it might not fully understand itself ( and the other part must do the same) in order to create unity... or separation, anger and resentment will create between the two parts. In order to solve conflicts. Both parts must be willing to cooperate and get the opportunity to be heard and seen. That's basically couple's therapy 101 As an individual man I want to listen to the problems woman face, but many times it feels like many woman are not interested to listen to me.

@Emerald It can be interrupted that way when you say that men are not missunderstood XDXD. It's not nessicarly true, it can happen on both sides. In fact that's exactly what I feel. I want to listen and learn about what you girls struggle with and integrate my feminie side even more but at the same time also be able to share how it feels to me, when girls tell guys how it is from their perspective, when it is only true from the female perspective. Like for example, when a guy get the girls attraction advice and tell him " be nice to her and love her and be loyal" and then he tries that and gets rejected and sees the girl getting together with a douchebag WHO does the opposite... And then girls say, " guys don't listen to my relationship advise, huhhh, fuck them" . That makes men feel even more missunderstodd because when they did, they just farled missurble. In that case, men don't listen to woman not because we are evil. We don't listen becuase it doesn't work. This is exactly how you feel aswell^^^^ notice this! You do the same thing that men do and feel the same way men feel. Gaslit and missunderstood.

@Preety_India Yeah and notice that you do the same, can you notice this? I want to understand though, I want to listen, I want to integrate it and I realize that I don't understand the feminine perspective completely. The question is however, do you or Emerald want to do the same ? I try to listen, I'm not perfect, I know there are stuff that I can learn. You however already seem to think you know everything and therefor not be intrested in listing to my perspective.

@EmeraldWtf who decides this? You? You can't say that men are not missunderstood, that only makes men who are missunderstood more missunderstood and proves my point. It's not about who is repressed or who is the bad guy. It's about acknowledging that both men and woman missunderstand/shame eachother for everything becuase men feel hurt by woman and woman feel hurt by men. Both are enmeshed in their own trauma. Of fucking course woman have been repressed by men for milina, I am not denying anything or saying that woman isn't missunderstood or missunderstood less, like Idc who is what. Woman have suffered enormously ( + 10000 * more than men) and still do and men need to understand woman a loooot better ( me included) don't come with the argument that woman shouldn't try to understand men better and acknowlde their feelings as real and legitimate and instead falsely them with that's just what they " feel". You do the same thing to men that men do to you. Notice that! Yes but notice that it is a wound that have created a split in all womans psychie, hence woman have learned to do the same thing to yourself and to other people. The oppression of woman and feminity have made woman push men and masculinity away from them. If I would punsh someone, I first need to missunderstand you/ see the person as separate from me. When that then happens the person who is punished will separate even more from me which only enhances the separation and the pattern repeats. Of course woman pushes men away, it's understandable but also notice that in order to heal - the femine must murge with the shadow again. The femine and masculine must unity and understand eachother. @Preety_IndiaSure I 100% agree but it goes both ways. It's about learning to understand EVERYONE and making EVERYONE feel loved. Not just men or woman. Maybe I am missing, something. I probably am missing something that I am not aware of that I'll be able to see clearly in a couple of months... but men are also missunderstood and deserves to be understood just like woman do. When either part denies the feelings of the other - division, shaming and hatred occurs. When both parties tries to understand eachoter, love and union occurs.

@Emerald If I where you I would investigate how you're contributing to your feelings of being missunderstood. You said you got triggered yourself and feel missunderstood so you obviously are not only frustrated becuase it is what it is. Of course this forum is toxic and of course most men here, especially in the daiting section missunderstand woman, but also realize that men also feel missunderstood from woman. Men don't feel missunderstood when you girls talk about the female perspective - men feel missunderstand when females negate and gaslight the men perspective. If trauma didn't exsist on both sides - the gender war would be resolved becuase then the other side wouldn't feel triggerd and in need of defending it's position. It's not a projection... it's how many men feel when they for example are told by woman that they should be more feminine to be attractive but then end up rejecting them for being that + telling men that they should listen to them eventhough their advice when it comes to attracting woman doesn't work. Don't negate when men feel missunderstand as projection... notice how you do the exact same thing to yourself and guys that guys do to you. You missunderstand and invalidate many men's experience. Guys say girls project and girls say guys project. Both feel missunderstood. Everyone deserves to be heard - and most importantly. Everyone must realize that it doesn't start out there, it starts inside. Also note. You have every right to your experience. You feel missunderstood and you're allowed to feel that and I understand why you do it... like many men don't understand, and I still only understand small bits. "It's very frustrating to only be judged by your looks" "It's very frustrating when guys only are after sex and not real commitment and tell you that, no I know what you wan, you want the PUA tactics and schemes and get pumped up emotionally" ( that's not what girls want, girls want intimate fulfilling relationships" " it's very frustrating when guys say that men don't know what they want, like fuck men with their gaslighting. I'm a human being who have my own needs and wants and I am special and want a guy whu will love me and treat me well yet at the same time be masculine" Your female perspective is super valid but that doesn't mean that the male perspective isn't. It's not about understanding it, like, oh guys want sex and what guys seek. It's about understanding that men feel missunderstood, hurt and scared aswell.. most woman don't get that.

@Emerald If you get triggered or feel missunderstood by it - it always comes from yourself and that you do the same thing to yourself. I am asking this following question, not because I want to prove you're wrong and I am right and missunderstand you but becuase I think we both are wrong and I want to learn more about myself and " integrate" your perspective and learn how to understand you and myself better. " What are the dynamic within yourself that you think causes your feelings of feeling triggered and missunderstood?" My theroy is that it has to do with animus possession or something like that but I have no idea. Any thoughts or ideas? Just telling how I interpet this. You always seem to focus on the problems outside of you and not inside. You have some amazing ideas Emerald but when you write out how everything is and say you have the answers - many guys feel missunderstood, just like you feel when we guys do the same. What is the meta dynamic going on here? Any ideas or thoughts. I mean both men and woman feel missunderstood and when that happens everyone gets pushed away by everyone. It can't be men or woman that does this.. both must do it, at the same time.

@fopylo Exactly + that if you stop meditating because of that reason you're also trying to escape from " yourself"/ a neurotic behavior. Yeah thats cool. Continue doing that but notice the fear. Also be open to the possibility to stop meditating for a while or skippig a day or too. What happend to me is that I meditated for more than 1 and a half years... then I became aware that I did it to escape myself and stopped and than I realized that I stopped for the same reason. In other words.. become aware of why you do what you do + maybe experiment with letting all your " musts" go for a while. Life is not about that you have to do X or Y. Its about doing what's best for you.

I don't know you Preety so this is only what I belive.. I think you use the wrong productivity strategy. The general idea of productivity doesn't work for everyone.. it only works for a self few. If you're more creative ( which you are) you need a different approach See... your mind is like the wind. It has high energy bursts that burn out but replenish quickly. These are LIFE CHANGING VIDEOS if you're anything like I described. It changed everything for me. Exactly Preety. Wanna know why? - because you're a Vata baby. You're like the wind and you should therefor structure so that you do multiple things at the same time. Use your energy, passion and interests that you have for life to your advantage. Don't play a different game. Please please for the sake of your life, not mine watch the videos I shared you. It changed my life. ( you do whatever you want though but I really want you to nail life (: ) You get huge bursts of energy and then you get bored... see you can align your life so that you take advantage of your passion and life energy. I really feel you. I struggled with this aswell so so much. It's super frustrating.. I really get it. Watch.the.videos. pleaaaseeew @Preety_India

Ask yourself: Why do I meditate? You will probably find that the reason you do it is because you want to be confident. But again - realize what ever the answer is for yourself. When you have reached this awareness, notice the fear - the fear that the solution to your problem ( meditation is the solution) might be the problem.. then meditate anyway eventhough you're scared that it will reinforce your anxiety. See It's like this thought modell I hate myself/ am not enough------ I should meditate to fix that ------- oh no it doesn't work ----- oh no, I am meditating to fix myself which reinforces my anxiety ------ oh no I should stop meditating ------ oh no then I will not be enough. The " solution " is not to do anything about this. It's about to see this while going for what you want. Do you want to meditate to fix yourself? Do it, but do it consciously and notice that your anger of not being where you want to be comes from the fact that you're scared of having low self esteem. See - the meditation bring you closer to the realization that you're insecure and hate that. If I where you I would investigate that and not run away from it.

@Etherial Cat Well all guys do and there are no exception to the rule.. like for real. Don't play games. What's up with the insults? I'm a guy who wants a hot girl like everyone else. Does that mean I don't care about how the girl is and the chemistry and personality. No of course I do. But don't try to convince yourself that guys don't seek hot girls. We absolutely do and that's totally fine - it's our survival agenda. Lolz. All guys value good looks. That doesn't mean we don't value other things in relationships aswell. In fact - I have fallen in love primarily because of girls personalities. But again... Don't take for granted what guys want and not want. All guys value hot girls - that's the truth. Period. That said, note that I never said that's what is what one should search after in relationships. That was your projection. All I said was that guys value hot girls - why? Becuase we do! Lol no I'm not. Girls want a masculine guy who has integrated his femine side and can provide containment. They want the tamed Lion, who can be an asshole and cold when he needs to, yet super kind to you. The perfect example of this is Damino or whatever his name is in måneskin. He attracs woman like crazy becuase he is a badass badboy feminie guy. That was what my Ex girlfriend said, not me XDXD. Oh wait, it was the reverse, I remember now. Girls want good boys with bad boy vibes. That's what she said. Also lastly - I really don't want you to feel missunderstood. I know that's the experience on this forum and especially for you girls because you're the minority. That said, I think everyone can learn from everyone. I know there are a lot of perspectives from the femine that I haven't integrated and disowned but I know that many woman do the same with the masculine perspective. Both missunderstand eachother and both are fucking wrong and fucking right in their own way.

Values are relatively ( subjectivly) objective. A hot chick is valued by men, but woman who are heterosexual don't value that. That doesn't mean that a general value of people can't exist - what connects us all is that we are surviving, hence why we value the things that is beneficial for our survival. That's why woman want a bad boy with good boy wibes and guys want hot femine girls XDXD. * if we assume the hetro normative perspective. That said, individual preferences of course exsist, but general subjective values is a thing. Just becuase it's subjective doesn't mean it doesn't exsist in practice. Men and woman value different things but what men value, most men generally value, and what woman value - most woman generally value. Survival value game 101

Yeah but notice that those people are people aswell that also Yeah and when that happens a shadow creates inside the one that pushes them away. Of course girls should stay away from desperate nice guy men but that doesn't stop from trying to understand why they are the way that they are and learning how to love them with a capital L. I disagree. I think it's important to seek to understand everyone - atleast if one wants to embody love and spirituality. I obviously am that way but I am at the same time not a horrible guy. The point of all this is to explain that there are different reasons why guys are creepy. A creepy guy could just be a socially akward guy who is shy and says something that makes the girl feel uncomfortable becuase he is shy and insecure. In fact, I've been that guy. That's from my experience. The whole discussion is that I don't agree with the conclusion that all creepy guys are bad guys have bad intentions. Of course they do. I couldn't agree more and I think it's important to talk about it. I know girls who witness about all kinds of nasty stuff. They sure exists and I'm not saying it's not an issue. It's a HUGE Issue... but it's also an issue of lumping all guys that acts desperate, clingy and needy in to that category as " bad people" that need to be pushed away. That only enhances the problem on so many levels and is one of the reason why guys who feel missunderstood turn to shit like black pill and incel ideology. If I ask a girl out and I do it in a weird uncalbritated too forward way does that mean I am an axe murdur? Probably not. Does that meen that girls shouldn't reject me and not see me as creepy and potentially dangerous or not suitable? NO. They should. But that shouldn't stop them from at least considering that I at the same time maybe didn't have illl intentions and that I didn't want to hurt them.. Point being - all desperate clingy needy nice guys are not crack heads. Most simply don't know what they are doing I get your point and appreciate this perspective XDXD The thing is that I recognize the behaviors but I don't recognize that I ever had any Ill intentions or that I am a bad guy that should be pushed away into isolation. I'm just a guy, not a category. People can be all that and at the same time not have bad intentions. Enmeshment trauma. I am scared of asking for what I want and people please to get people to like me. What I get is that I get a false sense of love. I feel like I am not enough on my own so instead I don't ask for it and hope that the other person will like me for giving up myself to them.. which sure is ego and selfishness but it's not like I'm a bad guy who wants to hurt the girl. It's just my survival strategy to get love which doesn't aid me that well in acuality. A socially akward man is not a creappy man but many socially akward men are creepy meb Yeah which happens if you lump up all creepy guys as creepy guys and don't account for that some are just socially akward.. hence - be careful with grouping people. I want to make a distinction between creepy guys and creepy guys, like this ( Creepy guys are crackheads but not all creepy guys are crackheads, some are just insecure socially akward dudes) Yeah I know and I disagree with the grouping. For sure your experience is hella valid! Exactly and I can tell you I've been the fakest guy ever but that's not becuase I am a crackhead who don't care about woman and want to hurt woman. That's because I am guy who is insecure, yet a guy who cares a lot about other people's well being and want everything to be well and to work out. But I've struggled to attract girls cause I've been scared to stand up for myself and be in my masculine energy which is totally fine.. like totally fine. But I'm not a fucking crackhead axe murder and deserve to be in the same category as them. I agree with you 1000% on this ^^^ You have every right to your experience and I know it's from your direct experience. All I am saying is that I am not wrong either. This is my experience and really want to be acknowledged that I have had that experience. Just like you want your experience validated and not gaslit by me or any other guy. ( which I've seen happens a lot on this forum and I am sorry for that) Yeah^^ exactly. And that's why I wanted to Express it becuase you where interested in learning more about the Male psyche. It's awsome that you're open minded. Then of course I also did it because I felt missunderstood and needed to tell you how I felt. That's my work in developing as a man. I know. what I felt was that I was in all those boxes but that the criteria didn't fit the box. I make it really personal cause I am identified with it and that's totally fine. That's how it felt for me. I really really belive that your experience is relevant from me. I've already learned a lot about woman and life from you and our discussions in the past. However, I think i am not the only one that can learn a lot. There are visdom about the Male psyche in what I have written that I belive and hope you can use to understand men better aswell. We are all leading eachother home, we are all learning from eachother. For sure. It's not and I do that and take responsibility for that but that doesn't stop me from expressing how I feel and what my thoughts are, from my limited perspective XDXD I for sure do but I also recognize that I am and have been in these boxes.. eventhough I am not a guy with bad intentions. I have acted both needy, obsessive and nice guye. (: I know your intentions don't worry. I'm just expressing my emotions and thoughts. @Preety_India

Yeah and what I am saying is that that interpation is biased and not how the guys usually are. Like pretty for real.. I expressed how I as a guy interpeted it. I didn't lash out. I felt missunderstood and expressed that. Of course the female perspective is valid and that those guys are not percived as safe and dangerous by woman. Of course men should work on not being that.. but the boxning in guys as being such and such and saying that these guys are unsafe Is ONLY true from the female perspective. Notice that not trying to understand them as people and instead as groups pushes them away from you... which is fine. Point being - this IS how girls see them after all, not how they neccesarily are... but this makes guys who struggle with attracting woman even more disconnected from woman. This is the exact same dynamic guys have when they judge super ugly woman.. we push them away down from ourselves and group them and don't see them as a person.. only as a a way to get what we want, which makes woman feel sperated and disconnected from men. Trust me, I am listing and I get it. " why should we ( as girls) care about these guys, we need to protect ourselves from them. Are perspective is valid, like hello!! How the fuck can these guys say that we shouldn't see these guys as dangerous. I mean they fucking are, I experienced it myself" I get it. I really do and I work on this.. but I also work on expressing how I feel. In fact, that's a part of it. You don't get it. When I approach a girl and get rejceted because I am nice I don't try to exhibit behaviors that Are hurtful. I try to get a girlfriend. I have been to fucking scared to show my intentions, not because I wanted to hurt woman. Never said it wasn't Yeah for sure but not all creepy men. Most creepy men are just socially awkward guys who are terrified of woman. They are some serious crack heads out there but be careful of putting all guys that are seen as unattractive in the same box. Yeah but that is what a nice guy is trying to do.. to get love. I don't know any nice guys that wants to hurt woman.. it's actually quite the opposite. That's why they avoid asking for what they want. Then sure they might end up hurting them anyway becuase they are not honest but it's not like they are " bad people" Pure gaslighting. I feel missunderstood and have every right to express that just like you have the right to express everything you feel and experience. You're assuming that I hurt woman but I don't - I get rejected by them because they don't get attracted to me. I never intend to hurt woman. I am not a bad guy that deserves to be put in a box. Sure but they get attracted them first. Sure I buy that but notice that it can be very confusing for guys to understand how to be that and that the nice guys are the one's who have swinged the pendulum to the femine side becuase they always hear from woman. " Don't be like those unattached unemotional fuck boy assholes"... and then they get put in a box as a creep. * which is fine. But notice how it is self surviving and notice that it maybe isn't always the whole truth. Most nice guys are just socially akward and scared, not bad people @Preety_India

@Preety_India Guys are not needy, creepy, desperate, manipulative or nice. Guys are guys. This is kinda similar to putting it as 1: Small tits girls 2: small ass girls 3: ugly girls 4: hot girls. Your description is not about understanding guys, it's about your understanding of guys as a woman from your surviving " what you deem as attractive and safe perspective". Men objectifie woman and woman objectifie men but in a different way. If I am honest and tell you that I have been perceived both as creepy, desperate, manipulative and nice but does that mean Imma bad person that deserves to put in a box? No.. I'm just a guy who happens to show those behaviours. I think that many men feel that they get judged by woman for being a nice guy or whatever, and sure they are not clear with their intention, but it's not like they * the nice guys* are bad or creepy guys objectively. They are just normal guys who want love from girls and get rejected and then get put into a box as being " something" becuase they are perceived as unsafe/ unattractive. Another thing that adds to this dilemma is that woman often say " I want a nice guy" but then sleep with the opposite jerk and meanwhile tell us that we shouldn't be nice... LIke , many men feel tereible missunderstood Preety. Woman say they want us to listen to them but the truth is that we struggle to do so if we see you saying one thing and then doing the opposite. - " be feminine and caring, not like a man - don't be a nice guy, I am not attracted to you. Go away! Like what should we be and do? It feels like we're either narcccistic fuckboy pigs or narcissist nice guy feminine pigs. It feels like a lose lose. Most "Nice guys, desperate guys and needy guys" can be nice - but what they all miss is that they don't ask for what they want.. not because they are mean.. but because they are terrified to do so. @Preety_India

I get so sad and frustrated when the girls I've approached flakes on me. I know it's a part of the game but I just think" fuckk what If I did this instead - now I lost this amazing opportunity and everything is avfull". I get painfull flashbacks when I think about the pretty girl and how I'm " locked away" from her, forever... How do you trancend this/ deal with this? @Leo Gura

Yeah, I know XDXD. How do I go about doing that though? My theory is that I need to accept that while at the same time taking steps towards integrating the parts within me that have been neglected, disowned, and rejected. What would you do if you were me and would like to learn how to love yourself? @Etherial Cat