DocWatts

Thought it might be interesting to start a thread where everyone posts a recommendation for a Podcast/Youtube channel they enjoy, along with maybe a one or two sentence description. I'll kick the thread off for the (highly underappreciated) Martyrmade podcast by Darryl Cooper, in particular his six part series about Jim Jones and the People's Temple Cult. https://www.martyrmade.com/topics/jonestown/ Goes in to a ton of depth about cult mentality, the fragmentation of the American Civil Rights movement, and so much more. He does a great job at covering difficult subject matter with a lot of nuance and empathy.

Also the fact that he's writing these books for the general public, and that he's able to present a nuanced look at the complexities of the systems he's analysing in a way that's understandable for a non specialist is a mark of just how good of a communicator he is.

Great points. In addition to this I think that his travels around the world, having spent much of his working life in places like Papua New Guinea forming relationships with indigenous people, have given him additional perspectives to think about the modern world and the problems it faces.

Glad to see this series get a mention.

Since the subject was brought up, I feel obliged to mention the Maryrmade Podcast's 'Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem' series, which felt like an emotional gut punch because of how well the host gets you to empathize with the trauma experienced by both the Israelis and Palestinians in this long and sad conflict. Really in depth and nuanced take that's a wonderful primer for anyone who wants to learn more about the subject. http://www.martyrmade.com/fear-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem/

Detroit

Transcend and include: capitalism is great at generating wealth, not so great at distributing its gains in an equitable manner, and is also terrible for environmental sustainability. Social democracy is really just a way to improve industrialized capitalism so that it works for a larger portion people, not just an economic elite. Not like social democracies like Sweden don't make heavy use of markets to distribute goods. The hard divide that's drawn between the two systems is rather silly, and usually done for ideological reasons and/or to make a strawman argument.

What's hilarious is that there are people from Blue who don't realize that this is making fun of them, and end up taking a critique of elements of Black culture from stage Green as an affirmation of thier own racist views. Chappele's Show also comes to mind for people in stage Blue / Red misunderstanding and liking something in a way contrary to what the artist intended.

Maybe I'm the odd man out, but after looking at a screen all day for my job, flipping through a physical book is really nice. Might be something particular to my sensibilities, but that subtle mildewy smell from a slightly older book is something I actually kind of miss when reading an ebook. I use simple sticky notes to mark the pages I want to return to, and will use an old school pencil to mark off this section or that.

Yup.

Easier said than done, but if you can frame the idea in a way that's uses some aspect of thier own worldview, you'll have more success. Just off the top of my head, the current Pope, Pope Francis, has been masterful in framing progressive ideals such egalitarianism and environmentalism in a way that religious people can find palatable (ie God gave this world to us, and we have moral duty not to let climate change and pollution destroy this gift from our Creator).

Sounds like he's maybe applying Spiral Dynamics in a really immature and uninformed way. If he's using it to judge others and place himself above everyone else, he's kind of missing the whole point of the Spiral Dynamics model. One of the main reasons that Spiral Dynamics exists is to help people better understand and empathize with others who have a different worldview than your own.

So I guess I would ask if your friend is manifesting his belief in this system in an unhealthy and/or toxic way? Is he isolating himself from outside criticism, and does get defensive really easily if his views are challenged in any way? Does he display an "us vs them" mentality to the outside world? Do you feel like he's being taken advantage of, or being emotionally manipulated? Those are just a few indicators you can look to to to help determine if your friend is in a cult. It could be the case that he's attached himself to a misinformed worldview without necessarily being in a Cult. As others have mentioned, without diving too deep into it, it looks like the model above is some sort of sloppy reinterpretation of Spiral Dynamics. Without more info it's kind of hard to say.

This thread is meant as a continuation of an interesting topic of discussion that originated in the Spiral Dynamics Stage Blue MegaThread. This discussion itself was about using Spiral Dynamics as a lens to look at various literary and philosophical works; in particular the works of Dostoevsky (who'd I'd argue is a healthy example of the Blue worldview), and of Nietzsche (who'd I'd argue is a Red worldview, though @Bernardo Carleial made a convincing case that he's closer to a malfunctioning Orange that dips in to the aggressive tendencies of Red). About Nietzsche in particular, I suppose I have a bit of trouble placing someone who has disdain for %99 of humanity, and is so predominately ego driven, into the Orange worldview. I'll also cite how outspoken in his opposition to Orange value systems such Utilitarianism, Consumerism, and Material Comfort, as well as his sycophantic admiration for the Elites in society as further evidence of this. And while Nietzsche would never have supported groups such as the Nazis, his work easily lends itself to fascist (mis)interpretations, since a positive claim is never made in his work as to why other people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. I'll admit that Nietzsche can be a tough one to place, as he does offer quite sophisticated critiques of aspects of Blue. Perhaps we're also seeing some of the limitations of Spiral Dynamics as a model; while it's a really useful model for most people most of the time, there's also a few cases where I have trouble mapping someone's ideas onto the SD model (where the hell would you put Hegelian Dialectics on the SD model?)

Awesome,thanks! I always intuited that Albert Camus was a healthier form of Existentialism than the existentialism espoused by Nietzsche, as unlike Nietzsche I got the sense that Camus cared about other people in a way that Nietzsche struggled with; he put his life on the line by fighting in the French resistance against Nazi occupation, and was a critic of Colonial Racism; he was also wise enough to understand the value of community. I'll admit that I'm much less familiar with the work of Ken Wilber than I am of Don Beck and Clare Graves. I've read most of what I could get my hands on for the latter, and only one Ken Wilber book so far (A Theory of Everything, which I found quite insightful). I'm also aware that Don Beck and Christopher Cowan distanced themselves from Ken Wilber, since he took their model in a direction they didn't quite agree with. Not to devalue Ken Wilber, I just think it's interesting that Spiral Dynamics is also open to different interpretations and implementations, just like any other model. I'd be open to other Ken Wilber books suggestions though; especially any books that go deep in to systems thinking, as that's something that's really resonating with me at this point in my life (I find the Spirituality stuff interesting and potentially valuable, but it's something I struggle to connect with as much at my current stage of development). I'm aware that people are a blend of different stages of Spiral Development, and saying that someone is at a stage just means that's where their center of gravity is at, so to speak. Just as a counterbalance when I find myself getting excited about an idea or concept, I like to take a step back and try to find its limitations (this really helped me a ton and allowed me to put things like reductionist materialism into perspective, for instance). Parsing out the implied metaphysics from a model or philosophy makes a lot of sense as to integrating it into the SD model.

I think that alot of nineties Gen X culture that I grew up with can be seen as a sort of transition between the Orange and Green value systems; the Consumerism of Orange mixed with the heart of Green.

Thumbs up aren't really a thing that the forums are set up for, but I'll give this a thumbs up.

The Roman Republic is a great for demonstrating both the strengths and weaknesses of Red. Hyper ambitious individuals being a big part of how Rome rose to prominence, with later generations of the Red meme being a pivotal factor in its downfall.

The Seven Mysteries of Life was a wonderful introduction to what a holistic approach to biology looks like.

Jared Diamond comes to mind. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Diamond

Yeah for sure man, would be happy to.

Haven't seen many video game examples listed in this thread, but Undertale is a wonderful example of what a stage Green video game can be. For those unfamiliar, it's basically a deconstructionist take on role playing video games, asks the player to have empathy for the Monsters you encounter on your journey, and challenges them to solve problems through means other than violence. It manages this while also not taking itself too seriously, and is a humorous game filled with puns and amusing scenarios.

I would think a massive improvement in the living conditions of all mankind, so that most people's survival needs at the lower stages are met, would be a prerequisite for a majority of humanity to reach Yellow (my mind here goes to Star Trek, just because there's not many other examples of a stage Yellow society that I can think of). The stage you're at doesn't arise out of thin air, it's a environmental response to survival needs in the society you happen to be living in, and I would imagine stage Yellow thinking would be hard if not impossible to achieve if you're constantly worried about your personal safety, have food insecurity, or are constantly exhausted from working a grinding dead end job. Most of the world hasn't even reached Green yet, so systemic Yellow thinking is a tall order. The people who make it to the higher stages of Green and then to Yellow tend to be highly privileged (not excluding myself from this).

Hey it's all good, I'm always more than happy to talk about literary works I enjoy, and enjoy hearing different perspectives on this stuff. Dostoyevsky himself was an interesting case. While early in his life he was a left wing reformer who protested authoritarian rule in Russia (and his earlier work reflected this), his arrest in the brutal tzarist penal system (including a mock execution), broke him emotionally and spiritually, so he turned to religion to pick up the pieces, so to speak. So I suppose you could argue that he was closer to Orange at one stage of his life, but due to trauma regressed back to Blue, where he stayed at the rest of his life. What's even more interesting is that you can see his knowledge of the Orange worldview reflected in the character Ivan in the Brothers Karamozov, who's a nuanced take on Orange (and the most interesting character in the book). Ivan ends up going insane from having a lack of belief in a higher power after the guilt of believing that his brother murdered thier father. Meanwhile the highly religious stage Blue character Alayosha is the most positively portrayed character in the whole book. As for Crime and Punishment, I believe the work is meant as a retort to a Nietzcheien (Red) worldview, with Napoleon Bonaparte in particular in the crosshairs. The work shows how self destructive a Red 'beyond good and evil' mindset is, as the main character cannot escape the guilt of the murders he commits, and attempting to avoid responsibility ultimately proves to be self destructive; he ends up turning himself in to the authorities, and accepting a sentence of hard labor for his crimes. Guilt and obedience to lawful authority are pillars of Blue. The fact that he tried and failed to transcend Blue and regressed back in to Red in the way you mention strikes me as true, and something I haven't considered. Of course if you see Nietzsche's worldview as Orange rather than Red (as I argue it's a nuanced power fantasy philosophy by a man who lacked agency in his own life), I could see how you would have a different interpretation of the work in question. It was interesting to hear your take on it, might have to give it another read one of these days.