DocWatts

Hey, exceptions will exist to most generalizations I suppose. Your situation sounds fairly unique. I would venture that the vast majority of people in thier early 20s claiming to be Yellow Systems Thinkers are actually stage Orange.

I would think that it would be much quicker than that to reach the Stage that's Center of Gravity for the culture you happen to be living in, and progressively longer for each Stage beyond that. In America reaching a Blue / Orange level of development is basically the default, and where a majority of people will end up without putting any effort or work in. In our society it's also not too difficult to go beyond that and reach Green, and depending on how one is Socialized growing up it can be achieved relatively early in one's development (about a quarter of the US adult population is at Green). Going beyond that is going to take much longer and take much more work on your part, since the Tier 2 stages aren't part of the cultural zietgeist at this present moment. 10 plus years to go from Green to Yellow doesn't sound at all unreasonable. I could see someone being at Orange or Green in thier early twenties. No way is someone going to be a Yellow Systems Thinker at that age.

Agreed. From what I understand Rogan was friends with Alex Jones since back in either the 2000s or 90s, but the Sandy Hook hoax conspiracy theory probably would have been the cutoff point to stop giving this gut legitimacy by putting him on your platform.

I could also see how someone like Alex Jones could have come across as more benign back before we had an Authoritarian demagogue using Conspiracy Theories to shape the course of US politics; hard to make that same argument now when the negative consequences of giving someone like that legitimacy and a platform are so obvious. Fair point though; might be worth keeping in mind that JRE started as a comedian's podcast that was sponsored by The FleshLight. I genuinely think Joe Rogan means well, but probably isn't cognizant of how impactful his show has become. 'The Marketplace of Ideas' concept that he uses to rationalize this is definitely an SD stage Orange oversimplification, and hopefully something he can outgrow at some point.

Funny you mention that, I finished reading that a few weeks ago. Would be very interested to see him explore more topics outside of Food and Nutrition.

This is something I've been struggling with a bit as well. Been a fan of his podcast for years, and without it I may never have been exposed to a number of people that I've learned a great deal from. Talking with a wide array of people from all walks of the political spectrum sounds awesome in theory, until it starts legitimizing people who are harming public discourse jn tangible ways.

I don't think I could be friends with someone who caused suffering to grieving parents by publicly proclaiming that the mass shooting thier children died in was a hoax. I don't know how Joe does it, and I'm sorry to say that as much as I like Rogan this makes me think less of him.

Too narcissistic to be Yellow. Having some awareness of Constructs alone does not a Yellow make.

Vaush correctly diagnosing the problematic Narcissism of Purity Politics that's preventing Green zealots from engaging with the political process in order to enact the changes they would like to see.

Same; like having to unpack the idea that we're no longer living in a democracy if that turns out to be the case.

I thought it might be useful to put together a thread that could act as a Resource for anyone looking to support Advocacy Organizations that are working towards addressing Systemic Problems in the various countries that we happen to be residing in. (Mods - if posting links to outside organizations is against the content guidelines for this forum, feel free to take this down; no hard feelings. Ideally anything posted here should be relatively non-partisan, but I realize Moderation may be required if this thread starts to go off the rails). I'll kick off this thread with two such Organizations in America, who are working to fix serious Systemic Problems in our Society: (1) Wolf-PAC https://wolf-pac.com/ Wolf-PAC is a non-partisan political advocacy organization which seeks to restore free and fair elections in America by limiting the ability of Corporations and Specials Interests to influence our electoral process. They way the seek to do this is by garnering support for a Constitutional Convention, with the aim of passing Amendments which would revoke the status of legal personhood for Corporations, and limit the ability of Special Interests groups to spend money to influence elections. As of the time of this post, Wolf-PAC has managed to get resolutions passed in California, Vermont, Illinois, New Jersey, and Rhode Island. Leo gave this organization a recommendation in his Conscious Politics series, so I thought it a good candidate to lead off with. (2) Campaign Zero https://www.joincampaignzero.org/ Campaign Zero is an advocacy organization seeking to address the problem of Police Violence in America using well researched, evidence based Policy Proposals. The organization was created by challenges posed to social activists to come up with an Actionable Policy Platform that can be used to begin addressing the issue of Police Reform. A number of these proposals have already been adopted in precincts throughout the country in the wake of the protests against police brutality that have been happening, and the website has a section where you can track the status of Reforms that have been passed or are being considered for the city or state you happen to live in. The Policy Proposals that Campaign Zero is advocating for are as follows: (1) An End to Broken Windows Policing (2) Community Oversight (3) Limit Use of Force (4) Independent Investigations and Prosecutions (5) Community Representation (6) Film the Police (7) Training (8) End Policing for Profit (9) Demilitarization (10) Fair Police Contracts

I expect we'll be seeing more disastrous Court decisions in the upcoming years, if rulings like the ones on Citizens United (where it was decided that money used to influence elections = free speech) and the defanging of the Voting Rights Act are any indications. I wonder what reforms to the Supreme Court are realistic to expect over the next two years with Democrats in control of the Presidency, House, and Senate. Back in 2008 they managed to squander their power on a toothless Health Care reform bill that improved some aspects of our exploitative Health Care system, but weren't able to include arguably the most important part (a Public Option). So I can't say my hopes are high...

Also consider the fact that a Document written more than two Centuries ago by Aristocrats in very different social conditions might not be perfect, or worth building a rigid ideology around. Also maybe consider whether your definition of Freedom stands up to scrutiny, and consider whether it might be worthwhile to adopt a more expansive version of what freedom might entail. Perhaps you should try to examine how the American ideals you champion aren't being lived up to for everyone in our society.

I would actually place Michael Pollan as a Systems Thinker who it would be more appropriate to place as a Tier-2 Yellow thinker; granted I haven't read everything he's ever wrote, but from the books of his I have read it's obvious he has a deep understanding of Systems, and can approach subjects from multiple different perspectives without falling into a dogmatic and judgmental point of view.

I'll just file that as further evidence for Trump's fascistic leanings. The fact that Supreme Court Justices have life time nominations is something that really needs to be re-examined, no one in a Democracy should be one of the most powerful people in the country for thirty or forty years. And we can't always bank on always having someone like Ruth Bader Ginsburg actually using that position to help people. A ten or twelve year term would be much more reasonable.

Well just be aware that you're defending an Authoritarian who, without any hyperbole, is doing everything he can to undermine Democracy through widespread Voter suppression and a campaign of misinformation to throw doubt on an upcoming election that he is very likely to lose. This is also someone who has committed Treason against the United States by conspiring with foreign powers to interfere with our elections, and has bribed other countries with promises of military aid in exchange for political favors. If you value freedom, how do you feel about Trump's comments that war veterans who died in service to our country are 'suckers' and 'losers'? How the Hell do you square any of that with an honest notion of 'freedom'? Conservatism is one thing, but Trump is a con-man who's been manipulating Conservatives into flirting with Fascism in order to Loot the country, and to avoid having to be held responsible for the long list of corruption charges that he's likely to spend time in court fighting once he no longer has the legal protections of the Presidency to shield him.

To still be supporting Trump in 2020, one or more of the following most likely applies ; (1) The person is a literal white supremacist who wants to live in a White Ethno-State (2) The person is part of the tiny economic elite that happens to be benefitting personally from Trump's looting of the country, and has found a way to rationalize thier highly selfish behavior (3) This is the most likely : the person is at a low stage of cognitive and moral development, and is vulnerable to being manipulated by a charismatic con-man who knows how to capitalize on conspiracy theories and propaganda to advance his own highly selfish egoic agenda.

...of course, wasn't insinuating that this would happen any time soon. Not crazy to envision some small seed of this happening for Islamic institutions that happen to be located in developed countries in our lifetimes though. It's not like Christianity is a monolithic thing will all two billion or so Christians at one stage of development, for instance.

Yes, but don't discount the existence socially progressive stage-Green Muslims, even if they're far from being a majority. Abdul El-Sayed, who was one of the progressive candidates running for the Governor of Michigan in the Democratic primary a few years back, comes to mind. If the Pope of the Catholic Church can reach stage Green, maybe Islam can have its own Green awakening at some future date.

Wait is Kanye running still a thing? Thought for sure that it was a joke that fizzled out a while ago, since I haven't heard anything about it in a while. In either case I think most of the country is tired of having a hyper-narcissist at the helm, and would be happy to hand the reins to the boring but respectable old man.

I know that a lot of (kind of dumb) people are Single Issue Voters, who always cast a Vote for one party or another because of an emotionally charged issue (abortion, gun rights, etc). Maybe if a Liquid Voting System could help to disrupt that sort of practice by giving people more choices on where to influence policy rather than it being an either or choice between the policy platforms of two candidates or parties, it could be a really good thing.

And because of the conflicts that can occur in the Spirit vs. the Letter of the Law, we see how important Norms and Conventions are to the continued existence of a functioning Democracy. Laws or a written Constitution aren't going to be enough to save Democracy if enough people are gullible enough to believe that life would be better under an Authoritarian strongman at the head of an ethno-state.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/09/23/report-trump-campaign-actively-discussing-radical-measures-to-bypass-election-results/?fbclid=IwAR2kCAb26TOQ7U1uCwkZtvFuShn3imqR61H0lLc2_4h3wHyJKlGCj1mSqTk#5374ea5c4800 From the article: "A jarring new report from The Atlantic claims that the Trump campaign is discussing potential strategies to circumvent the results of the 2020 election, should Joe Biden defeat Donald Trump, by first alleging the existence of rampant fraud and then asking legislators in battleground states where the Republicans have a legislative majority to bypass the state’s popular vote and instead to choose electors loyal to the GOP and the sitting president" ______________________________________________ This doesn't seem like it should be possible in a modern affluent Democracy, but then again, this is America, and Trump is like a cornered animal who's happy to burn the country down to avoid being held accountable for his actions.

I know the world is insane right now and Trump supporters are some of the most ignorant people on the planet, but I'm still having a hard time believing this isn't coming from a satirical news source like The Onion.

Is the shift towards progressive stage Green values primarily motivated by Pope Francis himself, or does it extend beyond him as a larger value shift for the leadership of the Catholic Church? When Pope Francis does end up passing on, what are the odds that whoever is elected as the next Pope continues advocating for progressive social justice reforms?