Vrubel

He questions the mainstream, he happens to be American and extremely cynical of anything rightwing. So he is naturally extremely skeptical towards a Western-allied nation in a geopolitical tricky situation. I know, Israelis are relatively advanced and liberal people. The media loves to sensationalize and visit the lunatics and creates a false image. But still, the structural base of the country is stage blue because that's the nation-building stage. This is not a bad thing because it also includes a lot of genuinely meaningful and upstanding values that you need to create a highly functioning state and society. (As a side note example: Like even if they do a news reporting on the Haredim (Ultra-orthodox) they always go to the same neighborhoods and the same sects that are the most extreme while the broader population within that subset is more reasonable and give more nuanced opinions regarding for example the draft and the state. The same is even more true for settlers. Most settlers are incredibly decent and upstanding people with reasonable views. Yet the media always goes to the same lunatics.)

@Nivsch take it from here As I understand. he says that because in America being sympathetic to Israel is perceived as mainstream and yes, Israel as a nation embodies more right-wing blue-orange values which he is set against in an almost absolutist manner. Obviously, the insane propaganda shitstorm coming from the other side is way more vicious and many a number more.

When the IDF starts to crush the skulls of objectors with a sledgehammer and sending the bloodied hammer to the EU (or anyone else) we can discuss how similar the IDF and Wagner are. Due to the shitstorm of misinformation and incredibly deceitful propaganda, I can’t just take some anti-Israel social media post at face value, I hope you understand that. Unfortunately, though shady interrogation techniques are a part of intelligence gathering in war, let’s hope in the future it won’t be necessary anymore but as of today, no serious military power is above that.

If I sense you’re part of the zombie hivemind smear campaign, I am tired of your shit and you will be blocked. If you have something fresh and intelligent to say, I can listen and note the merit of your post even if I disagree with you. The kind of vibe you give with your posting is important here, it’s usually a good indicator of decency and integrity or the lack thereof.

@Karmadhi Dude stop doubling down on your ignorance. What you do is just an age-old smear campaign and dirty tricks like a brainwashed teenage internet troll. You don't give a fuck about making honest, nuanced or crucial distinctions. You're part of the problem and the reason why I will always firmly defend Israel and stand for her truth. I had a nice run on this thread but from now on, I will block the aggressively ignorant people and mostly use it as a platform to interact with my Israeli friends here.

I get your point but I still stand by my previous post. Maybe you're right that now is not the time for a two-state solution. Let's see how this war and the aftermath will unfold. But in principle, a Palestinian state is not an issue for me. If it will have a Jewish minority this also should satisfy the Jewish desire to live in their biblical heartland. Sharon withdrew from Gaza because it was a demographic time bomb that would swallow up those settlements. Of course, the tragedy was that directly after the withdrawal Hamas came to power and began attacking Israel and bringing poverty, isolation and war to the Gazans and terrorism to Israel.

Good points but as opposed to the Gaza withdrawal, this will be done with a black-on-white treaty. If they violate their part of the treaty, we will be back at war. Superpowers like the US and China can also sign into the treaty to safeguard the terms for both sides. Basically Palestinians will lose the right to their state if they use it for the purpose of hostility, all this should be clearly defined in the treaty. The semantics and technical details of what constitutes a proper state state doesn't matter much. Most countries in the world already consider Palestine a state. They will be a state, just with a few compromises to accommodate the legitimate concerns of the Israelis.

I mean just direct border control by Israel. It's just crucial that all security will be done by Israel. They will only have a limited force for internal security. They will be a state, except for that aspect. This should not be unreasonable. I know, something like 80% of West Bank Palestinians support Hamas. Palestinians definitely won't be able to handle full democracy. If they are still hostile after having their state and doing 7/10 shit or other terrorism then we reserve the right to invade them and drive them out to Jordan. But that's just a hypothetical. I don't think most Arab countries care so much anymore about Israel's existence. Apart from the Iranian axis, they don't do any actions to really undermine Israel. For the the sensible leadership among them, Israel and US are an asset that brings stability and a counterbalance against Iran. For example, Jordan is a Palestinian-majority state but even so, they are somewhat allied with Israel. If the Jordanian leadership falls this will be disastrous for Jordan and also very bad for Israel as Iran will get a new foothold along Israel's longest border.

I was talking about the whole history in general terms. Most modern European nations start out in the early medieval era. Jews go way further back than that. We're more attached to the history when we wrote the bible and were sovereign in our own land rather than the 2000 years of exile. The Slavs are first mentioned in historical records in the 6th century CE. The earliest parts of the Hebrew Bible were written 1200 BCE. Something called a war. 3 Arab countries invaded Israel and they lost out. It was a case of either all of the Jews or many of the Arabs living on the land. The Jews just came out of the Holocaust and needed their place back to preserve themselves so it's not just those simplistic numbers you put forward. Oke boss, if you say so. Everything is always Israel's fault. Occupation/security control seems like the lesser of two evils. That's the tragedy of Palestinians behaving the way they do. 7/10 happened from Gaza, not the West Bank where Israel has more extensive security control. But sure, there is something to be said for the relative moderation of the PA. At least they are not part of the Iran axis though the volatility is always there.

The two have different national histories. Crucially Ukrainians are historically more familiar with the democratic tradition, for Russians democracy was always an alien concept. They always had a deeply hierarchical society where the authoritarians commandeered the common folk around like disposable peasants. Barely a million Arabs and 400,000 Jews at the time, with the establishment of Israel, also came a population explosion for both sides. Poland lost Lands in the east but gained German, formally Prussian lands in the West. So they don't hold a grudge in that regard. I get your point. The question is: can we trust the Palestinians with independence and healthy leadership. Will the Arabs create a beautiful and functioning state or will they lash out at us and start wars and larger 7/10's from a new supremely strengthened position as some kind of Iranian puppet? A demilitarized Palestinian state where Israel retains control over major settlements, the airspace and the border with Jordan is the only viable solution and a reasonable compromise for both sides. But this not happening for at least another 10 years as trust is so low now.

False equivalencies is the core of our disagreements. Israel needs to clear out schools and hospitals because that’s where the enemy bases itself as in line with their death and victimization cult. What Russia did, I have no words for… Don't spew a pre-packaged narrative but learn how to make distinctions both fine and crucial ones. Just saying everybody is always equal doesn't cut it.

Yes, all humans and most definitely countries are selfish, no way around that. That's why a certain American paybook for order in the world is necessary. Its effectiveness can be measured in the amount of... well... ORDER, as opposed to endless war and instability. You mentioned it yourself, the stage orange component of the "American world order" is pretty crucial. It's supremely preferred and much more stable than the Russian or China's stage blue (and even red) playbooks. Without America, the world would have been back in the jungle of a pre-WW2 world where endless wars are fought over ideology and nationalistic domination.

The guy seems pretty extreme and I disagree with him. Still, my real felt compassion and respect also extend to him. I guess that's a stage blue or even purple component of mine. Every person is deeply selective with his compassion if they say otherwise they're probably just doing it for the sake of virtue signaling and are full of shit.

I'm sorry to hear that. May he and his family be blessed with strength and comfort.

Wokies hate America which is different from healthy and chill stage green. I am as real as can be, if you're interested in economic and developmental growth as any country naturally is you have nothing to fear from America. It's only when you threaten other countries and the world order that America will keep a close eye on you. This is actually the pretty reasonable and chill context/world-order of today, before we had the cold war era context/world-order and before that the absolutely volatile context/world-order that led to two world wars.

Argentina is Latin-America level of development which is a tier under America. America is built on meritocracy, individual freedom and protestant values while Latin American societies inherited the not-so-freedom-and-equality based Catholic values and the more rigid hierarchical systems of the Spanish empire. But Argentina is definitely one to watch for the future. Smaller states will always need larger ones for protection. If you're a Westerner, America is your protector. If you're Nepal or Bhutan then India is your protector. "Protection" is a broad thing but more specifically they need to be protected from Russia and China respectively. Israel (and the wider Middle East like Saudi and Jordan) need to be protected from Iran. Putin and China will dominate if you let them but the US is putting out boundaries to both of them. America is saying: hands off Ukraine, Hands off Taiwan. Let's trade and increase our wealth and development instead. China and India have more than enough space to rise and eventually become equals or even surpass the US. The only thing that's demanded of them is not to start a war. India is actually a rising superpower without being overly aggressive and having ridiculous territorial claims. I think Hindu culture plays a role here. (Healthy) stage green, self-critique and satiricly self-ridiculing are indeed part of what makes the West so "great" though most of the world doesn't give a fuck about moral preaching. They just pursue the interests and agenda of the country that they love and accept that the world is the way it is. Woke whining and edginess are a uniquely Western phenomenon. Most people perceive them as spineless weaklings and in some cases even as useful idiots. Gaslighting Ukraine for getting invaded. You know, Ukraine is a sovereign country too. Why is it so hard to believe they genuinely want to be affiliated with the progressive West rather than the regressive East? Wanting to include Ukraine in NATO is sensible reasoning and well within integrity. My only issue is that they kinda pussy footed with it. You either do it or not because Putin perceived that "carefulness" as a weakness and got a bit too bold.

Haha, you come across as Bobby Fisher just minus the chess genius. Bobby Fischer is a perfect example of how a genius in one intellectual field can be a deranged fool in another. You love the political takes of Fisher but I'll go with Garry Kasparov

Damn… in what circles did you hang. You got my curiosity, I would love to get a beer with you

What a ridiculous strawmen. You’re just parroting some talking points that are in vogue among your circle. I don’t see any serious and well reasoned points.

What I said holds true. I know it's the latest trend among certain circles to be edgy, contrarian and virtue signal as much as possible. I would suggest to see things in their proper (historical) context and in an educated manner in matters of geopolitics and human survival. This "American era" we are in is absolutely unprecedented in human history. Russia was seriously unhinged and way too opportunistic in invading Ukraine, but as a rule, most countries in today's world think twice before doing something this stupid and destructive. You can act all outraged and whiny but billions of people around the world owe their stability to America and billions more dream of living in America.

We're talking about who can best yield the most power in the 21st century to keep our ape species safe. I say adhering to the Western world order is the best thing we all can do. From a historical perspective, wars are extremely rare now and most nation-state borders and sovereignty are respected. The core principle of the Western world order is that economic advancements and incentive should trump nationalistic 19th-century style violent strong manning.

If you would look at the total picture you would see the undeniable Net good to global peace and prosperity America provides to the world. Also, the obvious fact that the other players aspiring to be top dogs are way less moral or upholding of decent values. America is built on solid values of freedom and equality and American history is the expansion and refinement of these core values however convoluted and at times illinear it seems. And Isis being a low-key Western ally stuff is pure bullshit. The Middle East is a much more complicated quagmire than Just Iran/Islamic people vs the West.

It's not the 80's cold war era anymore. Reality was different then, quite frankly the Middle East as an oil hub is less important now. America did some shady things with some Central American countries as well in the Cold War era. But again. America ain't that bad relative to the crook in Russia and authoritarian in China. You guys are such alarmists. The whole vibe I get of some of you is one of fragility and being edgy and anti-mainstream just for the sake of it. Europe is adapting and doing fine. America will be fine, again the sheer quality of its people in industries like tech will keep it dominant for the foreseeable future. China too is doing relatively good though they can fuck this up for us all by invading Taiwan. China definitely has a bright future if they play their cards well and accept at least that aspect of the Western world order where powerful nation-states don't go to war against each other anymore. If Russia never invaded Ukraine and accepted the core aspects of the Western world order they also would have been much better off. Taiwan is de facto a highly functioning independent state, one of the best in the world in fact. There are some issues with semantics and formalities due to the massive economic blackmailing power that China has. I honestly don't know that much about China, I bet they have a lot of very educated people too but I don't see them having the same political climate and capabilities of capitalizing on it as America. A lot of the most talented people in Asia, Russia and worldwide move to America.

America is not going to weaken in any significant way. You being gleeful about it is kinda cringe and speaks of bad character. Be grateful that Russia or China is not your main world leader. I am not sure if Trump is going to win this election but it seems like he will and I don't think much will happen in the grand scheme of things apart from a white house shithow and sensationalized media coverage. America is still the world's greatest innovator and biggest producer and magnet to the world's most skillful and talented people. The only thing that fundamentally changed and is increasingly changing is that the worldwide geopolitical situation is now less stable and peaceful. Mainly due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and China's increasing willingness to take Taiwan using force. Both Russia and China and I would add Iran are regressive expansionist forces that need to be contained for the sake of world stability and prosperity.

Both Europeans and Arabs were basically the same. Those in power gave Jews special protection not granted to pagans who were just massacred and forcefully converted. Still, the position of Jews was extremely volatile and under incredible limitation. Violent Anti-semitism used to be more vicious in Europe, this came down to the fact that the Middle East always was a multi-ethnic region with a lot of diversity and overlapping lands where different groups were native to. While for example medieval Germany was virtually 100% Catholic and the non-conforming Jews stuck out like a thorn in the eye. Officially Jews got protection because they were considered people of the book by both Muslims and Christians but in practical terms it was hugely beneficial for your kingdom to have Jews. Jews enabled credit economies with loans and investments that were exponentially more prosperous than those without. Jews also could make use of established trade connections with close-knit communities who spoke the same language. Jews were also seen as religiously neutral when it came to trade and diplomacy between Muslims and Christians. Having said that the majority of Jews were incredibly poor and inward, mostly focused on their religion. It was the Job of the Rabbis to take care of the communal and spiritual well-being of the whole community while the wealthy merchants and bankers took care of the material well-being through extensive charity. But the great dichotomy of Jewish history was that even if Jews showed excellence in matters of survival like trade, education and community building. They were still in very beleaguered circumstances and no less absolutely volatile and dependent. Israel will become the redeeming out-of-the-box solution for this ultimate Catch-22 dichotomy Jews got themselves in living in foreign lands. That’s why I love Israel, can you imagine Jews still living among the Isis, Houthi and Taliban folk or some kind of eccentric Arab dictator. Jews are not only native to Israel but a much wider region in the Middle East though they cannot live there just as much Jews couldn’t really live in medieval Europe.