Vrubel

Yes, Israel's founding fathers and the whole founding generation pulled off an absolute miracle very few people would have been capable of. They were exceptionally energetic people. Almost as if the survival of their race depended on it. I currently listen to a podcast on Jewish history in ancient and medieval times. It's interesting to notice that really the more things change the more they stay the same. The Jewish people in basic character, traits and the attention they attracted were always basically the same. What also remained constant was the tension between orthodoxy and the more open cosmopolitism and of course the tension of Jews and the outside, often hostile but within more enlightened spheres also positive to the benefit of all. As hellish life was for Jews in medieval Europe even that history isn't completely black and white and has many nuances. For example, in those times pagans were just killed off or forcefully converted without hesitation while Jews, beleaguered as they were, had a specific role in society and were protected by the king, of course until they weren't and had to move on, to put it extremely mildly.

@Karmadhi There is a land called Arabia and a land called Judea. Judea was and still is a geographic region within Israel. Judea - Jews, rings a bell? I think a big reason why Israel is called Israel and not Judea is because the founding Zionists didn't want to stigmatize themselves for billions of Christians (the name is very similar to Judas). Also maybe because Judea used to be a very "puritan" austere and inward kingdom while Israel was more open and cosmopolitan. My guess is that the secular founding Zionists identified more with Israel as perhaps more religious Jews would identify more with Judea. But the fact that Israel's founding fathers were secular gives you a hint it's not only about the bible.

If that video title is referring to Hamas then yes. Otherwise, it’s such an obvious shilling to Hamas psychological manipulations. Nobody likes it when civilians die (apart from Hamas maybe). Suppose you don’t want your civilians to die in a hostage rescue operation. Please don’t take the hostages in the first place and certainly don’t keep them in densely populated areas. No edgy theories and zoom-in on Israel's extremists will save you from the most apparent fact that a life-loving advanced democracy is securing itself from unthinking savages. This terminology is not a demonization but an obvious description of their behavior.

Me superior? It's good that you have some self-awareness but if you improve your thinking on the issue you won't have to feel so insecure.

Wow, such wisdom such class. The fact that you get off on that tells me more about you. Most countries in the world are stage blue nationalists and they rarely fight with each other in today's world, let alone in high intensity. Russia is an exception here though their form of government is stage red maffia-like. Still, 90% of today's world warfare and deep instability is found in stage-red societies. Again, I have the whole Middle East as proof. Including the 99% of it that has no Jews.

I never said that. What an insane strawman. However stage red does cause constant war and instability. That's just a fact, I have the entire Middle East as proof. Also the cartels in Mexico and the gangs in Brazil. Civilization and functioning society start at blue.

I get it, there is a nuance. This is a complex touchy topic. But it's also way less romantic than you think. Many of them are just stage-red people who come from a strict environment to a very free and lax one, get bored and commit crimes. This is especially true for the youth as they might wise up when they mature. But none of this "poor oppressed people snapping due to the sheer weight of the injustice they receive in the hell of their Swedish Ghettos". Many just lack basic values, principles and gratitude for their host country who took them in.

That's factually false but whatever gets you off. Lots of people fit into Western society that's the beauty of it. It's very open and cosmopolitan. Most Asians, Latinos and Eastern Europeans integrate perfectly well. There is this one group though who lives by completely opposite sets of values and needs to take special classes on why it's not okay to harass or rape women when they're dressed in a sexy manner.

Israelis also can't just settle in whatever country they want. Though Israelis fit better in Western societies than Palestinians. The most logical country to take the Gazans in is Egypt as they share a border but they don't want that for some genuinely understandable reasons. They won't all die there, at some point, this war will be over and their population will continue to grow exponentially as it has done in the last 70 years.

I think it's definitely better if Europe doesn't take them. Maybe a few educated Palestinians from the West Bank but definitely not Gazans.

Life is more comfortable in Europe but that doesn't mean it's up to Europeans to house them all.

I understand. Poland took in Millions of Ukrainian refugees while being tough on Middle Easterners, good for them. There are definitely gems among the Middle Eastern refugees but it's not worth upending your society by importing them en masse. It's extra absurd because they don't directly border with Europe and for example, can go to Turkey or their brothers in the oil-rich countries.

Oke, I'll call uncle Bibi first thing in the morning.

Yes, I never denied their right to identify as the Palestinian nation even though how blatantly artificial that identification is (as a very recent reaction to Zionism by the local Arabs/Syrians) I actually respect that and recognize that as valid. However, there are other issues that make it hard for me to respect Palestinians. This conflict would be 80% less vicious if the Palestinians were solidly blue.

Oh please, Israelis and Nazis are dimensions apart. Every nation including Germans has the right to self-identity and to defense of their culture and way of life. This is necessary for society to function and for people to have genuine love/a connection to one another and feel connected to the advancement of their country. Countries that get too much on their high horse on this issue end up like Sweden and doing serious damage to the cohesion and cultural fabric of their society. I actually find there is a certain wisdom in how certain Eastern European countries are for example tough on migration from non-western places.

Oh but won't Ben Gvir now take his place?

But it's history. Jews were pushed around from place to place so they had to reclaim their native homeland. And you gotta admit, it worked. not every people would be capable to survive and eventually thrive in such conditions.

Oke, I understand you. But don't be so neuroticly alarmist. As awful as the situation currently is, the flip side of the coin is that Israel is still doing fine. The economy is largely running fine, people continue with their lives and people are even still immigrating to the country. The news will rarely cover the positive things. I read recently that Saudi Arabia removed their anti-semitism and "anti-zionism" from their children's textbook which can be seen as a sign or symbolic move towards larger peace and integration into the region. Netanyahu will one day be gone.

My first loyalty is to Virginia, there was never a question of doubt about that.

When I was in Israel I spoke with both younger liberal types for whom the hostages are above all and the more older conservative types who view the removal of Hamas as primary. I understand both. Personally I am more in favor to the first group but I just can't help understanding the more harsh second perspective as well. The last 76 years of Israel's existence is by far the best time to be born a Jew on this earth ever in history. In the scope of human history, Zionism delivered justice to the Jewish people.

I feel if you'll visit Israel with an open mind you'll understand why. It's not all as nefarious as you make it out to be, even the opposite. I don't completely understand you here. Like for me Ben Gvir was a nutcase before 7/10 and a nutcase after 7/10 but I am not painting Netanyahu all black even though I disagree with him a lot. As a history buff who likes to study war, I can definitely see the more overarching national defense logic Netanyahu is employing.

I never denied that. I am straightforward as can be. I know that in an existential sense, nothing really matters when I die but as long as I live I'll have this deep attachment to Israel, who I consider my people and obviously, this makes me sensitive to the physical threats and unfair (media) treatment they face.

Oke, I am sure you'll gaslight and shut me down by saying I am biased (like I am the only one) but I am definitely not seeing any of this. It's clear to me who is the loudest and who is winning the propaganda war, defenders of Israel's truth are relatively rare, not the least for the obvious reason Israelis and even Jews are a relatively small nation. Israelis could match Aljazeera's propaganda by constantly releasing 7/10 footage but they are keeping most of it private and shelved out of respect for the victims and to not repeatedly retraumatize themselves.

Jesus man, you're stuck. You don't know Israelis and their mentality. @Karmadhi I am just glad that Noa Agramani and the other hostages are saved. Sorry, but I genuinely deeply care for my own and don’t unconditionally pamper the Palestinians like you do. Hamas has created this horror show of physical and psychological terror and it was nice to have a rare reason to rejoice during this war.

Just the latest in your long list of false equivalencies: Reprisal actions work like this: You have partisans in the forests or underground (as in secret) so I will gather a thousand random civilians and execute them in the hope of breaking the morale of the fighters and civilians. This is how it happened with Nazi reprisals against for example Yugoslav resistance or even the Austro-Hungarian reprisals against Serbian partisans in WW1. This tactic is so obviously crude and an absolute transgression that it cannot possibly be blamed on the Serbian resistance. This is a dimension removed from blaming Israel because your terrorist government purposefully held their hostages in exceptionally densely populated civilian areas. The Serbians did not employ the tactic of hiding among their civilians and whining when they got killed. Serbians are too proud for that.