Vrubel

@Leo Gura How should Israeli society deal with and overcome such trauma? How does one "accept" or "move passed" all those unspeakable sadistic things?

@Happy Lizard The Palestinians are in a unique position where their pain and sorrow are incredibly well documented and in a constant spotlight. People all over the Middle East as well as the West (stage green) and the Third World are sympathetic towards the Palestinians. There are whole separate UN organizations to deal with Palestinians. No one else gets this kind of treatment. I don't see the same attention given to Yazidis, Uighurs, Tibetans, Yemenites, Syrians or Rohingyas. The Palestinians are not absolutely oppressed and have decent lives. Relative to the region Palestinians have a high-quality life, Ironically because of their proximity to Israel where they can get world-class wages to take back to their families. I saw more poverty and decay in Jordan than I did on the West Bank. Look at even street view of Gaza, it was a normal city. (of course now Gaza is getting destroyed but even if you look at the most recent rounds of fighting before this war, the damage was very limited and the causalities were usually mostly the terrorist leaders). My point is that Palestinians definitely do have substantial power in terms of influence and they still choose their morally deprived and toxic ways over healthy social justice organizing and dignified peaceful struggle. Yes, Palestinians have power and the ability to choose!

No, let's rape young women and burn babies and be all surprised and victimized when they strike back.

That's a convenient shrug of responsibility. The truth is that Palestinians live relatively comfortable lives relative to the region and the world. Media likes to exaggerate the day-to-day suffering. I have been to Bethelem and East Jerusalem, and whilst I realize these are the wealthier Palestinian places. It still has to be said that living there is materially 100* better than many of the other places I have seen in the world like Jordan, India and even South America. Palestinians could have easily coasted on their moral high ground and gotten something achieved but that's not the path they chose.

@Danioover9000 Again massive intelligence blunder, I don't know if they properly received that warning.

@Danioover9000 Again it was still substantially deep into Israel, Kilometres away from the fence. Israel is small. Nobody expected such an attack possible. Israel underwent a stunningly painful military and intelligence blunder.

A big part of the "oppression" is simply security checks, Palestinians find those humiliating but they are necessary to curb terrorism. But it is a problem for sure. Those communities near the border were Zionist but mostly very liberal and non-religious. Ironically amongst the killed and captured are a good amount of peace activists. Viewing Zionism as a purely stage-blue form of nationalism is not exactly fair. The concept of Zionism and its history is actually way more nuanced than people realize. (Zionism deserves a lot of admiration for saving Jewish people who would otherwise be EXTREMELY vulnerable in places like Iraq, Yemen and Algeria, also early Israelis could never know that Germany would transform into a highly humane peace-loving country). Israel is a small country without many open spaces in the center, the festival was still substantially deep into Israel. Further, I am not going to apologize for Israel because they build a high-quality society. Also, Arabs profit from that. A lot of Arabs are pacified precisely because they have a decent life in Israel with economic prospects they would never have in Arab countries. Also before the war 10,000's of Gazans worked in Israel and lived like "kings" in Gaza taking care of their massive extended families.

You know nothing about the Israeli mentality Israel was used to having a hostage here or there and they usually exerted great effort and cost to get them back regardless of dead or alive. A dead Israeli was still worth at least 100 terrorists. But what is happening now is a whole new level of trauma that will ask of Israelis to readjust their paradigm on this whole matter. After this attack, a bus bombing seems like a playground wound. Israelis put a lot of value on life, this has to do with trauma, the fact that they're a small nation but also their quality of life is great and the young people are often very talented with a lot of potential.

No one can seriously believe that, the hostages are their greatest assets. Hamas is also not exactly known for its principles of human decency and commitment to honesty.

So how do you crush Hamas without invading? How do you even attempt to rescue hostages without invading?

@Leo Gura It's clear Hamas is running circles around the IDF. They don't give a shit about anything and the world is jumping onto Israel. The hospital strike is a great victory for Hamas, without knowing the circumstances or the full story the world is rushing in to condemn Israel. It's definitely possible for Hamas to have its HQ underneath the hospital. The dead are already dead but those hostages are an incredibly traumatic open wound. For some context, Israel used to release scores of terrorists just in return for some dead bodies of IDF soldiers. That was the Israeli mentality but now this whole value system is shaken. Israelis will have to cope with this great loss and powerlessness. They no longer can view themselves as some small precious nation, but also as a nation that knows how to take a sacrifice.

Why not destroy your country?

@Nabd Of course, Muslims don't give a shit about the wars among themselves or the concentration camps in China and the literal genocide of Muslims there. But if Israel does the slightest thing they go batshit crazy. Israel is such a convenient (political) scapegoat for Muslims.

@Leo Gura Why do you think Israel is rampaging? They're still warning civilians and obviously, the scale of bombardment is way bigger than in "usual rounds" because this is not a usual round. But yeah, Israelis do need to see some footage of flattened neighborhoods to get something out of their systems. Also, the pressure from America on Israel regarding civilians is not mere lip service so I don't understand why you're dismissing this. America explicitly saying it will condition support to Israel will be an insult to injury and an absolute humiliation for Israel. You don't want to make Israel feel like a cornered dog.

@Leo Gura It's not about how many Gazans die but about achieving tangible military goals. To be honest I think the number of 10.000 will just be reached in the coming week. 100,000s died in Syria and Yemen at the hands of fellow Arabs. There was a time when Israel released 1000 Hamas prisoners for 1 Israeli soldier, so that tells you something about the "normal" proportionality of causalities within this conflict.

@Raze Dude, you grotesquely misunderstand that article. The article is about something very nuanced.

That's so naive. The pressure on Israel is already enormous from the US/West. The massacres in Israel only lasted for a few days but the bombings in Gaza will last at least a month, probably more. This pressure will only grow. If you say to Israel that support is conditional you'll make Israel feel more unsafe and they'll lash out even more. For Israelis, it is a psychological comfort that the US has those big deck ships nearby and that Iran has no nukes yet. But even so, they'll always know that when push comes to shove, they're on their own. What needs to happen is for the international community to comfort Israel with all kinds of guarantees. For example, the Saudis could say, Oke: destroy Hamas but if you show visible restraint we'll reward you with normalized relations. But of course, the opposite happens. Talking is done with the stick rather than the carrot. I think Biden has handled this crisis very well so far. He is doing all the right things. Don't underestimate how much Influence America has over Israel when it comes to security. The big leverage of America is that they legitimately can guarantee Israel's security, so don't underestimate how much Israel is being kept in check.

@Leo Gura Oh man I wish you were right. The people who examine the dead bodies found signs of the most inhumane torture imaginable on many of the bodies. Rape and severed limbs definitely confirmed, all in a family unit. I will never look at the world the same.

I just want an end to their suffering, This whole thing has put life for me in perspective and took away a certain innocence from me. Quick Death, quick closure is a blessing a 1000* better than the hell that is unfolding. I take comfort in that the people who saw their kids or parents tortured are dead now. What is the point of living after having survived such a thing?

@Leo Gura What do you think Israel's approach should be to the hostages? As I understand it will be near impossible to get them out of the tunnels. There are many babies, toddlers, young women and elderly among them. To be honest I think it's better for them to be dead than alive. Should Israel just flood them?

@Leo Gura What do you think should be the approach to Hamas supporters in the West? There are a lot of them in England, Germany, France and Sweden.

@HMD That map is false, there was then no independent Palestine or an Identity that came along it (that formed later or at the time.) Most of the land owners were elite Arabs from the region who sold land to Jews. The second map was a proposal refused by Arabs who went to war, the third map was of the territories being controlled by Egypt and Jordan until they again went to war and lost it.

It's not just the number of bodies but also the state of the bodies. Severe sadistic psychological and physical torture is detected on the bodies of Israeli families. I don't want to think too much about it but it was basically torture and rape of parents in front of their kids and of kids in front of their parents. For this, hell awaits Gaza, we have seen nothing yet.

@HMD That message was towards the British who were deporting Holocaust survivors.

They can't understand why Israel is getting so much support. They totally demonized the EU as an organization supporting apartheid for displaying a giant Israeli flag after the attacks. For them, Hamas are legitimate resistance. They had articles saying that the baby slaying was just fake news, vicious Israeli propaganda. they totally skimmed over the atrocities. They just have great production quality and some Western journalists who are not totally biased. But their in-house analysts are pure propagandists. They show very graphic images from Gaae but in the kibbutz that was massacred, they just showed a damaged car and some equipment left by Hamas. The fact that Aljazeera Arabic is just blatant anti-Semitic garbage with all kinds of conspiracies and holocaust denial should tell you enough about their agenda. They just have a particular facade for a Western audience.