Vrubel

The West is mostly secular, which already does away with 80% of the bullshit and backwardness.

@Leo Gura Come and visit Israel and Palestine. Just to see how people live and think. I think it will deepen your understanding. Most Palestinians in the West Bank live in decent houses with big gardens, they are not some kind of slaves. Gaza would also be much more open and integrated if it wasn't for Hamas. @Emerald Sounds really nice but still a bit too naive. Also, Israel might be literally the most multicultural country on earth. The issue is with the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians that needs to be resolved. Not with the concept of "ethnostate".

That was the fate of Lebanon. It went from a prosperous Christian country to a dysfunctional Arab one. I am definitely more optimistic for the long run of Israel. For the time being Israel has to remain strong.

Oh come on, life is not exactly a flowery meadow with the sunshine always shining. I am not going to apologize for Israel existing. Neither will the Jews saved from prosecution or being at the mercy of other often barbaric peoples. At the end of the day, Israel is a developed society with strong institutions. It needs to strike some things out like many other countries.

It's not about excusing anything. Israel had to be established because of the most unnegotiable stark reasons imaginable. The Jewish people needed an army. Period. Yes, in the process it brought with it the Palestinian issue which is the tragedy of history and definitely needs resolving.

I absolutely agree, usually I almost never do this but 7/10 compelled me to stand up for Israel. I am tired of all the nastiness. I can definitely see how the Israelis on this thread are more informed and reasonable than the bulk. Also, I have a little fever now and a little arguing gives me the right energy haha.

Thats a completely reasonable thing to say after all that was done in the attack. Yes, you can call a sadistic rapist a human animal, no need to be politically correct here or be mindful of their correct pronouns, maybe Ahmed the rapist is a they/them. At the end of the day Jewish culture is more enlightened and makes for more functional societies. You seem to equate the far right with the whole of Israel. Just look at the fucking people that were attacked and kidnapped, they were mostly liberal, left-leaning. there were scores of peace activists among them. Israel was established by secular people who loved science and progress. The reason for Israel's existence is extremely rational, you know because of what happened in the 20th century and before. The Bible stories are the cherry on top. Also the whole thing of "chosen" people, I literally never heard any Jew claim that. religious believe Jews were chosen to study Torah, thats it. It has nothing to do with superiority. Of course, extremely conservative insular people do exist but they are the exception. You definitely underestimate how reasonable and "modern" the general Israeli public is. Just look at those mass protests against Netanyahu before the war.

Thank you, man

Oke man, Hope you get over your depression. I will have to make the definitive conclusion that tier 2 discussion is impossible here.

I get your point but also they certainly do all of the above. False equivalencies and hyperbolic language is the hallmark. It's different from "regular biased" media like Al Arabia for example which is seemingly more level-headed. AJ is definitely more "out there" with an activist positioning. Stoking up the flames seems to be a goal of theirs. You either get turned off by the blatant bias and tone or you might get hooked on it if it fits your bias.

@LSD-Rumi AJ is blatant propaganda with a thin veneer of Western liberalism and high-quality production value due to Qatari money. You're not going to see an analyst on AJ taking Israel's POV seriously, they much rather whitewash Hamas and be their mouthpiece. On 7/10 they were gleefully excited and in total denial of the shameful things that really happened. I think Al Arabia is already much less biased because they don't have the same embedded maliciousness as AJ even though it's also Arab. Times of Israel, Jerusalem Post, and Haaretz are pretty decent if you want to learn the Israeli perspective. I mostly follow Times of Israel, and JPost mainly because my bias is to be concerned for the hostages and soldiers. But I also keep an eye out on all kinds of media platforms, I even respectfully listen to left-leaning intellectuals critical of Israel to get a broader perspective and different insights.

I would absolutely love that. But only a few people here are reasonable and have interesting perspectives. Most just want to play games. @zazen We can talk when you rein in your projections and demonization. @LSD-Rumi I don't always agree with you but you seem like the kind of person with whom a tier 2 discussion is possible.

Yes, You're such a smart big boy. Big boy with a big brain. Keep an eye out on the clock, almost bedtime.

@Twentyfirst Oke buddy, cool down. Enough internet for today.

It's impossible for me to read the stuff here and take it seriously. Many of you seem very childish and only interested in playing games. I am open to good points and interesting POVs from people who can use their brains. If you think you're discrediting Israel I would suggest you're only really making the case for it.

@Buck Edwards I am not respecting any false equivalences. 1. Palestinian prisoners are not innocent. 2. Palestinian Prisoners can do university programs and always have access to free healthcare just to name a thing.

I don't think anything they are doing is out of goodwill or humanity, the hostages are the most valuable thing they have. They are being forcefully pressured by the IDF. It's a cold calculation so they can prolong the war. Slowly but steadily stories of horrible abuse come from released hostages. Kids were forced to watch the graphic footage of their kibbutz being slaughtered. They got a gun against their head when they cried. The little Irish-Israeli girl who was there all alone thought she had been there for a year, poor soul. The bulk of hostages are still being held including vulnerable people, we have no idea how badly they are getting abused or even if they are still alive. Obviously, Hamas killed a bunch. The worst thing I can imagine is mutilation and rape, they are definitely capable of that too. People don't know how the psychology of being taken hostage works. And obviously, Hamas is doing propaganda for low-brow people to latch on to.

Haters gonna hate, I guess. (Inner) strength is really a core value of mine. I can really appreciate it when I see it. For me, it's inspiring and even motivating.

Yes, the military pressure from the ground invasion definitely played its role. The main benefit for Hamas from this deal is that they broke the IDF momentum and got time to regroup and resupply. There is still a long way to go as they still keep around 150 hostages including women and children. I think that when the truce is over, Israel will be able to take over the whole of Gaza City relatively quickly. However, invading the south will be tricky as there are now double the amount of civilians sheltering there. Kudos to the IDF for fighting so bravely, even with all the technological advantages at the end of the day it all comes down to basic human bravery and strength of spirit. Putting your life on the line in deadly combat in a dense city environment. Can any spoiled Westerner Imagine being 20, having lost family and friends on 7/10, and now fighting Hamas in Gaza.

You must admit it's not that simple. Notice how the 7/10 attack came from Gaza, a piece of land Israel doesn't control. Hamas is actually more popular in the West Banks but because Israel has the ability to do regular raids there it keeps terrorist activities in check even though it can look ugly at times to outsiders. Obviously, there needs to be a solution. I think two states is the most realistic one but the Palestinian state definitely needs to be demilitarized. This will be a tricky question. Also, any Palestinian country will be very precarious as the population is deeply stage red and I can predict there will be constant altercations amongst themselves and periodic lashing out at Israel even when independent. Obviously, there are legitimate and valid ways to be pro-Palestine. I have a lot of respect for Israeli peace activists for example. But those protests we saw in Europe have put a lot of people off because they are very low-brow and horde-like, some were violent others outright supported Hamas. Don't be naive about the extremely low level of intelligence and integrity within these demonstrations. Badly integrated Muslim immigrant communities combined with extreme leftwing people turn the silent majority off, and you can't really blame them for that.

It's not about dehumanizing Palestinians. It's absolutely tragic what's happening, I do view them as humans and I do squirm whenever I see human suffering. But that doesn't mean I drop all of the context and my critical thinking. I don't buy into your false equivalencies of comparing Israel to Hamas (the Israel=terrorist bullshit) and I don't compare innocent Israeli toddlers being held hostage by death cult terrorists to interned thuggish Palestinian teenagers. There is a certain cold realism to my view. For example, I am also Russian. I certainly don't dehumanize Russians. In fact, I have a lot of love for Russians and feel a genuine connection but at the same time, I can view a situation in a cold realistic way and understand why Ukraine has to kill some Russians. I don't make false equivalencies between Ukraine and Russia. There was lately the bombing by Ukraine of a theater filled with Russian soldiers and there was an innocent woman performing for them, she died too. I was really disgusted by that, really sad but at the same time, it would be insane and stupid of me to blame Ukraine and be angry at them.

If you're pro-Palestine you must realize that the silent majority is turned off by your protests and talking points, they can see through the low-brow herd mentality and blatent hypocrisy. Yesterday an anti-Islam party became by far the biggest in Dutch elections. I didn't vote for them but I think it's no coincidence they won so overwhelmingly at this time.

That's a very vile thing to say. You have no idea how they treat the hostages, especially the most vulnerable ones. Also, Stockholm syndrome is the only way people can cope with the trauma of kidnapping and total loss of control. There is a difference between imprisonment and being kept hostage by a terror group. Can you imagine being totally at the mercy of your terrorist captors.

Isn't it obvious that Israel will continue this war as long as hostages are still being held. Oh, and those unspeakable atrocities committed on 7/10 might also play a role. Anybody here blaming or demonizing Israel is fooling himself.

That's definitely a point where he overshoots, it's unconstitutional to ban a religion. I would say Islam itself is not the problem but just the way many immigrants cling to it in extremely conservative ways and don't adopt Western values or integrate the Western worldview. This creates tension with the wider population. Having said that it's important to be nuanced on this issue and also to point out that integration is successful in many cases and overall immigrants do contribute to the economy. Nobody is going to send them back. Wilders can't harm their basic rights but he will be tough on any anti-western and Islamic sentiment in society but even here his power is limited by the constitution and presumably his coalition partners.