Vrubel

Is it possible that people can be naturally sympathetic to Jews, and not always seek out some kind of "sneaky" manipulations? Different people have different values. More conservative people will often feel a click with Israel.

religious Zionists are like 20% of the population and are really diverse. You have people who have crazy extremist and racist worldviews but also reasonable people. Like Naftali Bennett who was prime minister for a short while. He was demonized by Western media as a "right-wing extremist" but in reality, he was a highly democratic leader with a lot of integrity and moderation. Even serving in a coalition with an Arab party for the first time in history. If I was the Prime minister of Israel I would rein in the extremists settlers by expelling them from the West Bank. If you can't behave yourself you don't get to live around Arabs. But on the other hand, I also would really appreciate the strength and contributions of the religious zionist community. Because they serve in the army, they study, they work and have big families strengthening the state. We can also learn from them.

Even if we don't consider the Jewish historical and 'spiritual' connection to the land. You must understand that Israelis consider themselves native. When you live and defend a piece of land you consider it your own.

I am incredibly grateful for being born in the situation I am. I am also grateful to be born Jewish and to share deeply in the pain of 7/10. It reconnected me with the Holocaust and the pogroms before that as something no longer of the "past and outside current reality", now I realize it's all part of the same reality, the same consciousness. It's a brutal aspect of life I was in denial about and tried to run away from. This all shows that 'strength' is the core virtue of life. Without strength, there is no life. Keep in mind I am not making any argument here I just describe my own internal experience. Now for the opinion part: I don't think Israel should wipe off Gaza or make civilians needlessly suffer but there shouldn't be a ceasefire either until Hamas is defeated and brought to justice. I think Israel is showing it can achieve this goal though it will take a little time. If Israel doesn't remove Hamas and they commit these kinds of massacres again and again then Israel's response will get even harsher because at some point it will justify a real fucking genocide. Much of it is standing up against lies and the incredible bias on the opposite side. Let's not pretend there isn't any there. For those who care about objective thinking can use the Israeli perspective as valuable puzzle pieces. Wise words. I think a reasonable compromise would be: Israel can finish Hamas but must do everything to protect and supply civilians. I thank God I am born to the comfort and freedom I have. I have nothing but goodwill for Arabs who condemn violence and are pacified like Israeli Arabs. I will choose their side over the ultra-nationalistic racist side. It's the cosmic ripples of history, It's tragic. We must move forward but admittedly it won't happen in the short or middle term. I can only be optimistic for the long term.

For those who live in the West, just be grateful that you live without war and terrorist massacres and don't know what it implies. You're still innocent and therefore naive and ignorant about these aspects of life.

Well... it's absolutly true and an important point. Meanwhile sons of Israeli politicians are fighting on the ground in Gaza.

I was reacting to a different issue, but about your point: There was this assumption that for how bad Hamas is, there could always be something worse like ISIS. Of course, this assumption came crumbling down on 7/10. This is the killer trap of the silent assumption that all people think more or less rationally like you. These people turned out to be death cult, sadistic psychopaths. You can never give such people the benefit of the doubt. The same applies to Hezbollah. Hamas could have coasted by because each previous war ended relatively quickly due to international pressure. Like the survivability rate of a Gaza militant was extremely high, he basically had not much to fear if another round of fighting broke out. Hamas was in a relatively comfortable position and sneakily positioned itself as a "reasonable" actor by for example negotiating workers' permits with Israel just before 7/10 to alleviate the unemployment issue, which was Gaza's greatest issue.

The whole point now - because of the attack - it is not about politics anymore but about raw survival for Israel. As much as I dislike Netanyahu it's insanity to get rid of him during a War. I would still have sympathy for America if it was massively and brutally attacked by terrorists even though it's led by Trump. And luckily as problematic as Netanyahu is, he is at least competent and relatively reasonable, he does restrain himself to certain geopolitical realities.

What... ? Netanyahu is the most horrendous PR master ever especially in relation to the liberal West, his greatest Allies. I hold him responsible for the fact that Israel has handed in so much sympathy because of his policies. Biden basically shunned him before the war and because of the protests in Israel. Though the 7/10 attack kinda made all the left-right politicking seem so petty and irrelevant.

There are also anti-war protests in Israel, nobody is arresting them. Though I am sure some minor crackdown did happen directly after the attack.

@Leo Gura They mentioned it's a whole conspiracy to prevent moderate Palestinian leadership, that's false. I don't know if that poet was purposefully killed but his tweets did not seem very moderate or intellectual. I know that Israel bombed a bakery that displayed a picture as an advertisment of the old Holocaust survivor granny being humiliated by Hamas. That might have been purposeful.

@Leo Gura That's some hyperbolic bullshit propaganda. Purposefully killing off the intellectuals to supposedly prevent moderate Palestinian leadership? The Israel Defense minister stated today that Israel doesn't want to be permanently in Gaza and would prefer Palestinian leadership that does not act (violently) against Israel. I think most Gazans won't support violent resistance anymore after this war. You can feel sympathy and be critical without resorting to conspiracy theories. It's clear that the mushy minds of these kinds of people twist information in such a way as to demonize Israel to the max, I have no respect for that. If you look at the military situation some intense fighting is going on and Israel is moving forward slowly and steadily, closing in on Hamas. The war will be over in a few months and then it will be Lebanon's turn if they don't reach a diplomatic solution. Let's hope to God that they do.

Cool! I also have a Russian Jewish background. I found this inspiring:

@Parallax Mind he seems on path to get a elected. Also a lot of non Maga people seem to prefer him over Biden.

Everything seems to point to Trump being elected again. While most see him as egocentric and narcissistic, this does not result in people painting him all black and disqualifying him. While Biden is pretty decent, people seem to get really hung up on his age and nitpick a lot. Do you think Biden will win?

@Karmadhi You must learn how stage red operates and then maybe you'll get some appreciation for Israel. You might think Israel is evil but at the end of the day, it's still a reasonable nation-state actor like most countries in the world. Stage red is not a respectable actor, it will see any compassion and goodwill as weakness and exploit it to the fullest. Hamas carried out the attack precisely because it knew it would not get genocided in return and that the UN would happily become its greatest ally in calling Israel to a halt. Israel cares first and foremost about its own people and it needs to ensure that civilians can once again live in those border kibbutz villages. Notice how nobody can really care or take responsibility for Israel's security aside from Israel itself. Not the US, UN and certainly not a pro-Palestine entity. As a Jew, I know nobody is really going to guarantee the security of Jews other than Israel. The Irony is that before this war I felt more and more alienated from Israel due to Netanhyahu's politics. But I am now fully behind Netanyahu because Israel needs to restore its most basic security and deterrence once again. Supporting Palestinians would have been a no-brainer if they weren't so underdeveloped, dysfunctional (stupid), and supporting terror. To me, they have zero moral high ground. If you want a good case study on dealing with stage red. You can learn about the truly fascinating history of how the Soviet Union got involved in Afghanistan. They actually got involved because they thought that the local communist dictator went completely overboard in how cruelly he dealt with dissent but when the Soviets took over they ended up doing the exact same. If you read about the mentality of the Afghans and the insane cruelties committed by both parties, Israel will seem like an angel.

Israel has no desire to annex Lebanon or Iraq. Most Israelis don't really want to control Palestinians either but they kinda have-to to maintain security. It's a catch-22 and a cycle of violence. I think that only a concrete peace agreement can solve this situation but that will be somewhere in the distant future given the current situation. What you're seeing is Israel not tip-toeing around Hamas tactics anymore because they are so pissed and serious now after 7/10, still not an ethnic cleansing though. Despite everything you can tragically state the fact that Israel cares more for the civilians of Gaza than Hamas, who were supposed to be their elected government.

Haha, this is exactly the mentality of most of the people here. God forbid we study history and learn to understand. God forbid we fill our heads with knowledge and insights, that shit can lead to scary places like maybe finding out that Zionism isn't evil but actually highly understandable, necessary and good.

@Twentyfirst Dude, you write so incoherently and "out there" that I can barely understand you. If you have historical questions you can study it in depth or ask chatgpt or something. Nobody is hiding anything from you, the topics of Jewish history and anti-semitism have been widely researched. I didn't call you anti-Semitic (I don't know you or care to know you), I pointed out that you suggested a very common anti-Semitic dog whistle used by the extreme right.

What about you study that history yourself instead of using anti-semitic dog whistles.

Gaza a week before the war. Now a civilization gone with the wind. Because why choose life when you can kill Jews?

Exactly, "Giga ultra super Zionist". But what even is Zionism? what's its origin and history? Frivolous things like knowledge, insight, and context don't matter. It's Evil!

man... Just look at Gaza right now... Aren't you supposed to care for these people? Just imagine having a leadership that dehumanizes the shit out of you. 500km of tunnels, not a single civilian shelter! It does a horrific attack and then goes back to hide under your family's house. It absolutely doesn't give a fuck whether you live or die or how many of its own will get buried under the rubble. But Hey, we killed Jews, so totally worth it! This is not the path of resistance, it's the path of being as dumb as a brick wall. The path of peace is the only path (especially for Palestinians if they want to be viewed as normal humans, first and foremost by their own government.)

Obviously, Israel will not Just "withdraw" without solid security guarantees and an agreement in the form of a signed treaty. Oke no peace then. Go ahead and kill, rape and mutilate. How is that working out?

@zazen The notion that Palestinians supposedly graciously welcomed, sheltered and protected Jewish refugees is complete nonsense. I do not deny the Palestinian right and connection to the land by the mere fact that they are living there but the truth is that there was no such thing as a Palestinian people because that national identity was yet to be developed in response to the Jewish one. All there was were some formerly Ottoman Arabs (often considering themselves Syrians) working the land who never had any country to begin with. They also never had the agency, institutions or resources to graciously "welcome, shelter and protect" Jewish refugees. Jews bought land and worked on it fair and square. Arabs never really united and were loosely spearheaded by an Islamist Nazi sympathizer who frequently met with Hitler or other Nazis. The slightest rumor was enough for the Palestinians to attempt a pogrom. Because the newly settled European Jews defended themselves with guns and barricades they committed a pogrom on the defenseless native Jewish population in Hebron. This is way before the establishment of Israel, occupation or West Bank settlements. In the early years, Israel was a very vulnerable socialist idealist nation of just a few hundred thousand. They would have accepted a lot for just a piece of land they could call their own. Now Israel is a considerable nation of many millions, a strong economy and a powerful army. After the six-day war, the Arabs had their golden opportunity to give peace and recognition to Israel in exchange for the West Bank and Gaza. Now, any such deal will have to keep into account the many settlements. Realistically Israel is not going to forcefully evacuate 300 000 of its own citizens. So really I think a future Palestinian state will have some Jewish minority. It will be yin yang, Israel has an Arab minority and the Palestinians will have a Jewish minority.