Vrubel

He questions the mainstream, he happens to be American and extremely cynical of anything rightwing. So he is naturally extremely skeptical towards a Western-allied nation in a geopolitical tricky situation. I know, Israelis are relatively advanced and liberal people. The media loves to sensationalize and visit the lunatics and creates a false image. But still, the structural base of the country is stage blue because that's the nation-building stage. This is not a bad thing because it also includes a lot of genuinely meaningful and upstanding values that you need to create a highly functioning state and society. (As a side note example: Like even if they do a news reporting on the Haredim (Ultra-orthodox) they always go to the same neighborhoods and the same sects that are the most extreme while the broader population within that subset is more reasonable and give more nuanced opinions regarding for example the draft and the state. The same is even more true for settlers. Most settlers are incredibly decent and upstanding people with reasonable views. Yet the media always goes to the same lunatics.)

@Nivsch take it from here As I understand. he says that because in America being sympathetic to Israel is perceived as mainstream and yes, Israel as a nation embodies more right-wing blue-orange values which he is set against in an almost absolutist manner. Obviously, the insane propaganda shitstorm coming from the other side is way more vicious and many a number more.

When the IDF starts to crush the skulls of objectors with a sledgehammer and sending the bloodied hammer to the EU (or anyone else) we can discuss how similar the IDF and Wagner are. Due to the shitstorm of misinformation and incredibly deceitful propaganda, I can’t just take some anti-Israel social media post at face value, I hope you understand that. Unfortunately, though shady interrogation techniques are a part of intelligence gathering in war, let’s hope in the future it won’t be necessary anymore but as of today, no serious military power is above that.

If I sense you’re part of the zombie hivemind smear campaign, I am tired of your shit and you will be blocked. If you have something fresh and intelligent to say, I can listen and note the merit of your post even if I disagree with you. The kind of vibe you give with your posting is important here, it’s usually a good indicator of decency and integrity or the lack thereof.

@Karmadhi Dude stop doubling down on your ignorance. What you do is just an age-old smear campaign and dirty tricks like a brainwashed teenage internet troll. You don't give a fuck about making honest, nuanced or crucial distinctions. You're part of the problem and the reason why I will always firmly defend Israel and stand for her truth. I had a nice run on this thread but from now on, I will block the aggressively ignorant people and mostly use it as a platform to interact with my Israeli friends here.

I get your point but I still stand by my previous post. Maybe you're right that now is not the time for a two-state solution. Let's see how this war and the aftermath will unfold. But in principle, a Palestinian state is not an issue for me. If it will have a Jewish minority this also should satisfy the Jewish desire to live in their biblical heartland. Sharon withdrew from Gaza because it was a demographic time bomb that would swallow up those settlements. Of course, the tragedy was that directly after the withdrawal Hamas came to power and began attacking Israel and bringing poverty, isolation and war to the Gazans and terrorism to Israel.

Good points but as opposed to the Gaza withdrawal, this will be done with a black-on-white treaty. If they violate their part of the treaty, we will be back at war. Superpowers like the US and China can also sign into the treaty to safeguard the terms for both sides. Basically Palestinians will lose the right to their state if they use it for the purpose of hostility, all this should be clearly defined in the treaty. The semantics and technical details of what constitutes a proper state state doesn't matter much. Most countries in the world already consider Palestine a state. They will be a state, just with a few compromises to accommodate the legitimate concerns of the Israelis.

I mean just direct border control by Israel. It's just crucial that all security will be done by Israel. They will only have a limited force for internal security. They will be a state, except for that aspect. This should not be unreasonable. I know, something like 80% of West Bank Palestinians support Hamas. Palestinians definitely won't be able to handle full democracy. If they are still hostile after having their state and doing 7/10 shit or other terrorism then we reserve the right to invade them and drive them out to Jordan. But that's just a hypothetical. I don't think most Arab countries care so much anymore about Israel's existence. Apart from the Iranian axis, they don't do any actions to really undermine Israel. For the the sensible leadership among them, Israel and US are an asset that brings stability and a counterbalance against Iran. For example, Jordan is a Palestinian-majority state but even so, they are somewhat allied with Israel. If the Jordanian leadership falls this will be disastrous for Jordan and also very bad for Israel as Iran will get a new foothold along Israel's longest border.

I was talking about the whole history in general terms. Most modern European nations start out in the early medieval era. Jews go way further back than that. We're more attached to the history when we wrote the bible and were sovereign in our own land rather than the 2000 years of exile. The Slavs are first mentioned in historical records in the 6th century CE. The earliest parts of the Hebrew Bible were written 1200 BCE. Something called a war. 3 Arab countries invaded Israel and they lost out. It was a case of either all of the Jews or many of the Arabs living on the land. The Jews just came out of the Holocaust and needed their place back to preserve themselves so it's not just those simplistic numbers you put forward. Oke boss, if you say so. Everything is always Israel's fault. Occupation/security control seems like the lesser of two evils. That's the tragedy of Palestinians behaving the way they do. 7/10 happened from Gaza, not the West Bank where Israel has more extensive security control. But sure, there is something to be said for the relative moderation of the PA. At least they are not part of the Iran axis though the volatility is always there.

The two have different national histories. Crucially Ukrainians are historically more familiar with the democratic tradition, for Russians democracy was always an alien concept. They always had a deeply hierarchical society where the authoritarians commandeered the common folk around like disposable peasants. Barely a million Arabs and 400,000 Jews at the time, with the establishment of Israel, also came a population explosion for both sides. Poland lost Lands in the east but gained German, formally Prussian lands in the West. So they don't hold a grudge in that regard. I get your point. The question is: can we trust the Palestinians with independence and healthy leadership. Will the Arabs create a beautiful and functioning state or will they lash out at us and start wars and larger 7/10's from a new supremely strengthened position as some kind of Iranian puppet? A demilitarized Palestinian state where Israel retains control over major settlements, the airspace and the border with Jordan is the only viable solution and a reasonable compromise for both sides. But this not happening for at least another 10 years as trust is so low now.

False equivalencies is the core of our disagreements. Israel needs to clear out schools and hospitals because that’s where the enemy bases itself as in line with their death and victimization cult. What Russia did, I have no words for… Don't spew a pre-packaged narrative but learn how to make distinctions both fine and crucial ones. Just saying everybody is always equal doesn't cut it.

Yes, all humans and most definitely countries are selfish, no way around that. That's why a certain American paybook for order in the world is necessary. Its effectiveness can be measured in the amount of... well... ORDER, as opposed to endless war and instability. You mentioned it yourself, the stage orange component of the "American world order" is pretty crucial. It's supremely preferred and much more stable than the Russian or China's stage blue (and even red) playbooks. Without America, the world would have been back in the jungle of a pre-WW2 world where endless wars are fought over ideology and nationalistic domination.

The guy seems pretty extreme and I disagree with him. Still, my real felt compassion and respect also extend to him. I guess that's a stage blue or even purple component of mine. Every person is deeply selective with his compassion if they say otherwise they're probably just doing it for the sake of virtue signaling and are full of shit.

I'm sorry to hear that. May he and his family be blessed with strength and comfort.

Wokies hate America which is different from healthy and chill stage green. I am as real as can be, if you're interested in economic and developmental growth as any country naturally is you have nothing to fear from America. It's only when you threaten other countries and the world order that America will keep a close eye on you. This is actually the pretty reasonable and chill context/world-order of today, before we had the cold war era context/world-order and before that the absolutely volatile context/world-order that led to two world wars.