Adamq8

Well I think it is good arguments for God's existence, I especially love Thomas Aquinas 5 ways, he is using aristotelian language, he is one of the most profound philosphers in Western history. A Italian catholic. Secunda Via: The Argument of the First CauseEdit Summary In the world, we can see that things are caused. But it is not possible for something to be the cause of itself because this would entail that it exists prior to itself, which is a contradiction. If that by which it is caused is itself caused, then it too must have a cause. But this cannot be an infinitely long chain, so, there must be a cause which is not itself caused by anything further. This everyone understands to be God.[7][14] Explanation As in the First Way, the causes Aquinas has in mind are not sequential events, but rather simultaneously existing dependency relationships: Aristotle's efficient cause. For example, plant growth depends on sunlight, which depends on gravity, which depends on mass.[8] Aquinas is not arguing for a cause that is first in a sequence, but rather first in a hierarchy: a principal cause, rather than a derivative cause.[16] Tertia Via: The Argument from ContingencyEdit Summary In the world we see things that are possible to be and possible not to be. In other words, perishable things. But if everything were contingent and thus capable of going out of existence, then, nothing would exist now. But things clearly do exist now. Therefore, there must be something that is imperishable: a necessary being. This everyone understands to be God.[7][14] Explanation The argument begins with the observation that things around us come into and go out of existence: animals die, buildings are destroyed, etc. But if everything were like this, then, at some time nothing would exist. Some interpreters read Aquinas to mean that assuming an infinite past, all possibilities would be realized and everything would go out of existence. Since this is clearly not the case, then there must be at least one thing that does not have the possibility of going out of existence.[14] However, this explanation seems to involve the fallacy of composition (quantifier shift). Moreover, it does not seem to be in keeping with Aquinas' principle that, among natural things, the destruction of one thing is always the generation of another.[17] Alternatively, one could read Aquinas to be arguing as follows: if there is eternal change, so that things are eternally being generated and corrupted, and since an eternal effect requires an eternal cause (just as a necessary conclusion requires necessary premises), then there must exist an eternal agent which can account for the eternity of generation and corruption. To hold the alternative, namely that an infinite series of contingent causes would be able to explain eternal generation and corruption would posit a circular argument: Why is there eternal generation and corruption? Because there is an eternal series of causes which are being generated and corrupted. And why is there an infinite series of causes which are being generated and corrupted? Because there is eternal generation and corruption. Since such an explanation is not acceptable, there must be (at least one) eternal and necessary being. The First Way: Motion 1. All bodies are either potentially in motion or actually in motion. 2. "But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality" (419). 3. Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect. 4. Therefore nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality with respect to motion 5. Therefore nothing can move itself; it must be put into motion by something else. 6. If there were no "first mover, moved by no other" there would be no motion. 7. But there is motion. 8. Therefore there is a first mover, God.

Haha nice one brother ? God surely is unimagineably powerful, there is no limit to Him at all and that is why fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, don't fear those that can hurt the flesh, fear Him who can destroy your soul is an old saying

I want to apologize if I offended anybody of you and if it was a touchy subject. It was not meant as a heated debate and I could have handled things differently then commenting like that, and for that I am sorry ? we can agree to disagree on this topic, but that does not mean that we should be enemies or dislike each other. I appreciate you brothers no matter what.

This is from Nabeels book, keep in mind that he and hos entire family was devout muslims.

Hate speech? i do enjoy alot of sufis, ibn arabi for example. I like their ideas about Allah. I stand firmly on the ground saying that muhammed was not anything like Jesus. https://youtu.be/5NXtIUv5i2w I suggest one can begin with reading the book, seeking allah finding Jesus by Nabeel querashi.

@Intraplanetary How is that relevant to the topic we are discussing? Are moderators not free to comment on posts?

Your ignorance on the topic clearly shines through, how can you even compare islam and christianity, christianity the man behind it suffered excrutiating pain and horrendous suffering for speaking the truth and he knew that he would be killed and yet he stod tall for the benefit of others, while islam is from a lunatic who ordered killing of children and women. If you actually study the gospels you would see who Jesus was, he was an enormously profound character, while muhammed was a evil being. They are not even the same, and in saying so, you make a big mistake, people gotta be accountable for their comments, like yours, for spreading misinformation.

@PepperBlossoms https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Works-Church-Fathers-Christian-ebook/dp/B01F9PRR92 3 dollars on Amazon Kindle. The mystical theology of the eastern church - Vladimir Lossky. The divine names - Dionysius the areopagite. Christ the eternal tao - Hieromonk damascene. Orthodox dogmatic theology - Michael pomazanski. Mere christianity - CS lewis. The orthodox church - Timothy ware. Orthodox Mysticism and Asceticism Philosophy and Theology in St Gregory Palamas' Work - Constantinos Athanasopoulos. The philokalia, this book is the profound book of orthodox faith, on prayer, Asceticism, fasting, the spiritual path etc. Byzantine theology - John meyerdorff. Nihilism the root of revolution of the modern age - Seraphim rose. Orthodoxy and the religion of the future - Seraphim rose. Experience of God - David bentley hart. On the cosmic mystery of Jesus christ - Maximus The Confessor. Haha now you have alot of sources to investigate and read about I am sure after you read books like this, your faith will be much stronger.

Dude, Christianity is and has been the biggest religion in the world, it has an incredible rich tradition. If you live in the West and got an education you can thank Christians for that. I have been anti christianity for most of my life, thought it was horseshit, until i deepend my understanding of what it truly is, and I gotta say I am way more impressed with it then any other school of thought or religion. And the profound thing is, that the trinity makes sense and it avoids the philosophical problems of dualism and non dualism, it incorporates both and transcends it. It is both one and many because God holds both of them in his trinity. I strongly recommend you read the Church fathers, Gregory of nyssa, basil the great, gregory the theologian, dionysius the areopagite, John of damascus, gregory palamas, maximus the confessor Just from these individuals alone, who fought heresies, you will gain an incredibly rich understanding of the Christian faith.

Fearing God is the beginning of wisdom.

So you think that this somehow confirms panentheism? If so, you are misled. Christianity is and has always been a monotheistic religion, one God but three persons. Father - Son - Holy spirit. "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28 : 19-18. Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Some say that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom .

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I would say that Moses, Jesus etc, was not panentheists, you can deepen your "understanding " and experience of God infinitley, because he so transcends the world , but also immanent. Its monotheism but also trinitarianism. What would you say is more plausible? What is the strongest argument for/against for both worldviews in your view?

Blasphemy ??

Did you not just say that humans aren't that complex and now conciousness is extremely complex? How is consciousness developed? I agree that the mind can evolve or it can develop, but an infant still have experiences and it dreams in the womb apparently, which I dont know how they found that out but, if the case is that, conciousness is a " by product" of the brain, I wonder at what precise moment does it gets turned on? Are not flies also concious of its surroundings? How can a simple fly be aware of its surroundings? Even brain less creatures exhibit intelligent behaviour Everything seemingly seem to be concious in one way or another, we are bathing in an concious ocean of infinite intelligence which gives the forms it creates life, it breathes the holy spirit into everything.

Come on dude you are speaking such nonsense with posts like this, " I know man - made computers can become conscious " no you don't have a clue about that, you are avoiding a BIG PROBLEM in neuro science, how is it that neurons make you taste chocolate or smell a rose? They have not one iota of a clue, you are buying a thought story which has no basis in reality , the typical " give us more time and we will solve everything" is a typical cop out coming from neuroscientist and what not just to stay floating above the water. Firstly we have not figured out dogs or how they work either, we can't create a alive dog and then you say that us humans are not complex when scientist's says that the human brain is the most complex object in the known universe. I am seeing behind the arguments or points that you are trying to get across, a big nihilistic mindset which you have had problems with in the past. " humans are not that complex etc" That is such a nihilistic statement. You somehow believe that these scientist with their confident smug on their faces trying to explain away problems like it's nothing, that is the essence of scientism, which is the worst sort of religion that there can possibly be. Do you understand that there is this HARD PROBLEM OF CONCIOUSNESS, we dont even know why or how we have this experiences or how matter which is unconcious can even in theory give rise to the colourful world that you experience, to then go on and make the leap to speak about concious computers etc when we have no clue about conciousness. BUT! There is a possibility PERHAPS of concious computers, but it feels like a long shot, in the 1960's there were also the confidence of concious computers but it was no way near succeeding in that endevour. Time will tell ofcourse of how that will play out, but life is precious my man i promise you, you are so unique that no one is ever gonna be like you, embrace life with all its suffering and joyous experiences brother.

Thats silly, nobody is talking about Jesus being a part of Absolute Infinity. JESUS IS THE WORD OF THE FATHER. Jesus is the Logos of ABSOLUTE INFINITY. Absolute Infinity is not some brute force, it is The Father, who's mind is without limit and who's understanding is without measure. According to Orthodox Christianity, it is Jesus( Logos of God) who created everything. He is predicted HUNDREDS of years prior to his arrival by the prophets in the bible, there has not been any figure more written about, more art inspired by, more modern educations his followers created, then Jesus of Nazareth. All modern universitys is thanks to the followers of Jesus. Western society is thanks to these men and women who laid down their life for Jesus and to spread the Gospel. Do you understand the the suffering Jesus had to go through, and he faced it even tho he KNEW what would happend. In some eyes this man was a criminal and condemned for his teachings, do you really believe that a man from a insignificant part of Nazareth in Israel would be the founder of worlds largest religion if he was not divine really? His ministry as he proclaimed will reach to the ends of the earth. He is God who became flesh. I mean the ACTUAL God, not the pagan gods or the universe, he who created the universe entered creation and died the most horrible death in order to show his power over death and sin. And anyone who says it is bullshit is too afraid to face the consequences of the teachings of him and what it truly means to surrender your life to God. " I am the way , the truth ,and the life, no one comes to the father except through me" You have to give up all your porn and repent your sinful nature, Christianity has produced more saints then any religion combined, and they lived the life Jesus laid out for them. Surrender your ego to God's will, which is the hardest thing you can ever do. And to the majority this will sound like bullshit, but if you truly care about your soul i suggest you wise up and take him seriously. His followers was terrified and left him alone on the Cross, they denied him, and then all of the sudden they ACTUALLY DIED defending the resurrection of him, they died horrible deaths, crucified, thrown to wild animals etc because they saw Jesus again alive. Because they knew and saw who he truly was so that they feared not men but God who has power over death. Paul the apostle, was one who persecuted different followers of Jesus, he hated them, he was a pharisee , had a good and comfortable life with money which in those times were rare, but Jesus appeared to him after his death and from then on he renounced everything and went on to preach the Gospel in different countries playing a major role in the spreading of Christianity. There is plenty of evidences from non christian sources in history as well that wrote about Jesus and his followers. Take for example the Buddha, between his death and writings about him, there are hundreds of years in between. Not so with Jesus.

Ofcourse, it is thought by an infinite intellect. Just check out mandelbrot sets, it goes on forever, and it is different patterns within patterns, thats not a creation by humans, it is the Mind of God which is responsible for mathematics. Mathematics is universal. Check out Georg Cantor, who talk about the Absolute Infinite, which he equates with God. It is Christ in Christianity which is the Divine Mind responsible for creation and for the order in the universe, he is the Logos. Numbers prove God! Numbers exists in minds, numbers and ratios and patterns can be observed wherever you look, the fibonacci sequence, the golden ratio, phi , fractal etc. It exist in the world, but in the abstract, you never see the number two for example, but you know what it is. But numbers can't actualize anything on their own, they are ideas in the Mind of God.

Surrender to God.

Sounds like a bad "energy or thought forms" got a hold of you when your guard was down, it is nothing to worry about, just let it go, trust that there is a Light which the darkness comprehends not, but that Light is mightier then the darkness, and it's there for you, just have faith. The darkness is the going away or hiding from he that is Light, it has no dominion. There is such a Light brother that will embrace you and show you the Truth, evil is the absence of the Good and is nothingness, but not even evil can have power over the uncreated Light. It destroys darkness.

Deep thought's and satisfying to read, nice ? I wanna give a proper answer for that deep contemplation you had there, but atm i am too lazy and i have a 3 months old son at home so I cant really deeply contemplate and take my time ? But I like your thoughts and I want to build on that when time is allowing ?

Well that is why we say that God in himself is completely unknowable and ineffable, he completely transcends being or non being, it has no power over him since he gives being to us and being and structure to the cosmos. He is Infinite, but we dont really know what that truly means, we use words like omnipotence, omniscient etc, which is more a negative theology, because we can't imagine the power or wisdom of his Infinite Mind. We would have to rely on something more then just theology/philosophy etc, we have to rely on Divine Revelation, how God manifest himself to us. But also notice that there is spiritual experiences which is delusional and is the work of the "devil" God is infinite uncreated Light. Divine revelation also show and reveal the profoundness of God's wisdom and it reveals God to be a Personal God, not some mere abstract force like it is in star wars. And he did become incarnate, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, to show that human and divine can co mingle and live in total unity, we become gods through God's grace, theosis. But we never become God in his essence, we can know some of his energia, but not his essence. And we are also made in the image of God, we are a microcosm, we are the Logoi of the Logos.

Didn’t really expect a philosophy discussion either ?? so my answer was more based on my feelings then through logical reasoning. I agree that the possibility for all kinds of life is more or less infinite, and there can be life forms which we could not even understand, atleast it is possible. But I would not put awareness in the same category as flying, it is the feeling of the be itself, existence, life force or whatever you want to name it, without life there is nothing, but life can be without wings and still be life, it is like it is on a deeper level then how the form takes shape, like essence and energy distinction. Essence = conciousness Energy : body/action etc. as it seems to be, we can use and shape energy and replicate and build a super computer but we can't create the essence, , not artificially atleast, thats how it seems to me, we need male - female and a living body to create a baby etc. BUT it is possible for God etc, to create a concious AI if he would choose so. We humans can create insanely powerful stuff, we can invent new amazing things, but what we learn from is studying nature, we are not responsible for nature in that way, it acts according to laws and do have patterns and predictability, which points to an underlying Mind, a Logos, the difference between that Mind and our mind is that, that Mind has designed the entire universe, and has created nature which we are inspired from and from which we create stuff, since we are made in God's image we can create and mimic nature, but to actually give it LIFE, that's the difference between little mind and Big Mind. Because, we don't create a living being with an airplane, we create something useful our intellect can master and make it a part of our selves, as an extension of our body, but we have not been able to create a living bird for example. We are born creators with a powerful mind and an immensly rich creative gift , but we are just mimicking nature which comes from God, we can create video games with seemingly living character's, whole worlds, but we never create it as an physical reality because we are limited in our powers compared to the INFINITE, but we are a fractal of that, as I said previously, we are made in the image of God. But I do presuppose God, you might not accept the premise of God but i am not doing serious philosophy atm so I just share my point of view ?