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@gettoefl Am I broken?

@Leo Gura Yes, but there's another perspective often articulated by saints and gurus that there is some sort of objective Goodness out there called Love that's can guide our actions, bypassing the human ego. Almost like any action can be guided by Love or Fear, and if we choose Love it's because we're acting on behalf of God's will. I see this as different than the Stage Yellow win-win-win stuff, though some overlap perhaps. And I'm not sure if it's distinctly about survival, as often the examples used are doing something that risks survival for the sake of Love. Is this just because it's pointing to the survival of the human species (and/or nature), or is there actually some objective Goodness out there that our hearts can feel and be guided by?

@Leo Gura Thanks for your response! Often a rebuttal I hear from my "spiritual" friends is that we must align our actions to morality (morality being that which Love wants to manifest through our unvarnished Souls), and that if we can follow the light of Love than goodness will prevail. A lot of Stage Yellow spirituality is about this: morality and ethics reign supreme, and there are omni "win-win-win" scenarios that are the most Love-oriented and therefore should be held in the highest regard. Even David Hawkins and his scale of consciousness says some actions are higher on the scale than others. Your "worldview" seems to point to something much simpler and more radical, that everything that Is...is Love, and any differences between Hitler and Mother Theresa are just a bias from our ego's subjective POV. How do you reconcile the two philosophies, or are they fundamentally different at their core?

@Bernardo Carleial Pretty incredible! I think about this all the time when I'm grocery shopping. I also love contemplating the logistics and systems thinking that goes into building a skyscraper. Simply astonishing and yet all easily explainable if broken down into small enough pieces

That's great to hear it's resonating! Keep us posted as you continue your journey

@Nobody_Here That's what the book is about: how Purpose is a construct that changes through the various stages of our development, and yet looking back on our life (depending on how we articulate our Purpose) we can see how, in a way, that we were always living this Purpose. When we get to Construct Aware it all starts to break down and be deconstructed only to be later reconstructed (with lightness) at 5.5 and higher. I'll check out the Power course from Kim. At this point I'm mostly interested in one-on-one coaching with someone who has personally gone through this stage themself so that I can speak in a familiar language and have the insights of someone who can resonate with the challenges often presented here.

@blackchair The last third of the video is all about that.

@Nobody_Here @PepperBlossoms Any resources, books, teachers, etc that have helped you during this stage? I just read The Golden Thread by Holly Woods which was amazing book about Purpose and how it looks at each stage of development, including the Construct Aware phase. Also, this interview with Kim Barta was great, especially how he spoke about shadow showing up at each stage. I actually emailed him to see if he could do some sessions with me, but he has a one year waiting list lol Also of course I find many of Leo's videos to be very helpful in navigating the ego deconstruction process. Any in particular that you both most resonated with? Grateful to be in connection with those on this forum

@Nobody_Here Yeah, I resonate with much of what you said. Have you moved past this stage, or are you still in it (or oscillating)? For me, I recognize that at this point only an act of Grace and/or a deep meditation practice can push the "me" through this stage, but the "me" is still so addicted to thoughts and the witnessing of thoughts that the motivation for hours of meditation each day is not yet there. But I always recognize at some point the suffering will motivate the necessary next steps, so to speak. Or maybe it will happen more organically without the suffering (inshallah).

@PepperBlossoms Yes. This. Thank you. When did you start seeing the world in this way, and what had been your journey through this “stage”? In other words, can you construct some stuff to describe how you started realizing you construct stuff? ?

Read the follow excerpt from Susanne Cook-Greuter and sense (with your somatic gut brain not just rational mind) how much you resonate with it. http://www.cook-greuter.com/9 levels of increasing embrace update 1 07.pdf "The Autonomous Stage 5: (Strategist) The Autonomous stage represents an enlarged fourth person perspective which places the individual’s experience into the context of particular worldviews and within the totality of a person’s lifetime. With the expanded time frame and wider social networks, Autonomous persons can perceive systemic patterns or long-term trends and are often valued for that “strategic” capacity. Cognitively they have a general systems view of reality, that is, they can comprehend multiple interconnected systems of relationships and processes. Autonomous persons realize that they may notice different conflicting aspects or polarities in themselves at different times and in different context, but -- unlike Individualists, who may despair about ever knowing who they really are -- Autonomous persons are capable of “owning” and integrating many disparate parts of themselves. This includes integrating previously compartmentalized sub-identities. The crucial new capacity is to realize one’s power to generate meaning and to tell a new story. This is possible now precisely because one understands that meaning is an interpretation we bring to experience. We all tell stories about what is happening all the time. Autonomous persons consciously commit to actively create a meaningful life for themselves and for others through self-determination and self-actualization within constantly shifting contexts. They posses a relatively strong, autonomous self that is both differentiated and well integrated. This includes the capacity to see and accept paradox and tolerate ambiguity. Expanded 4th person perspective: Self in embedded in history and multiple cultural contexts. Autonomous persons become fine-tuned to their own psychological well-being. Theirs is a different emotional tone than that of Individualists, much less cynical and distrusting. Relativism changes into personal commitment and responsibility for creating one’s own meaning. Persons at this stage are attuned to their inner workings. They are now capable of rediscovering and owning parts of the self which have previously been disowned, because they seemed too confusing or too threatening. The shadow side of the self can be acknowledged to a greater degree and therefore a new integration and wholeness is possible. Although they experience role conflicts and dilemmas strongly, they recognize that these are inevitable and that ambivalent feelings are natural. Unlike those at even later stages, Autonomous persons try very hard to keep their act together and to come across as reasonable and mature. They feel themselves responsible for being able to orchestrate among conflicting needs and different subidentities and generally appear balanced. Even more than at the Individualist stage, experiences are accepted for their immediate qualities. Distressing emotions become more tolerable, they can be acknowledged within oneself and shared with others. Autonomous persons have access to a logical system which can integrate psycho-logically paradoxical elements, therefore less energy needs to be spent on “defending.” Realm: Society and others with similar convictions and principles Time frame: own “history, lifetime” Cognition: 5b, metasystematic operations; General systems thinker Preoccupations: own development, self- actualization, self-fulfillment; processes Positive equilibration: well-balanced body/mind integration; autonomous, tolerant, insightful, growth-oriented; high self-esteem; overarching principles Truth: can be approximated; higher development is better since more complex arguments carry more weight than feeble ones. Higher is more adequate for functioning in an ever more complex global theatre. There are qualitative differences! This in turn, allows them to be more tolerant and spontaneous than adults at conventional stages. Self and others are accepted as complex human beings with both good and bad traits. Exchange with others makes it possible to get in touch with aspects of the self or of one’s behavior one would otherwise tend to overlook. Good feedback makes one aware of what one is defending or blind to. One needs the caring presence of others to become the most one can be. Thus, others are vital to one’s well-being because only through a dynamic and intimate exchange with them can one gain deeper self-knowledge and wisdom. Mutual interdependence with other human beings is inevitable and experienced with awe and an awareness of one’s responsibility towards them. Autonomous persons can sometimes experience non-possessive love (or being love) because of this profound appreciation of other people as mirrors of themselves. The greatest fear of Autonomous persons is to feel that they have not fulfilled their potential, or to have failed to observe those universal principles they value deeply (justice, tolerance, dignity of all people). Depression is often based on loss of courage, loss of self-agency and guilt for not having fulfilled one’s unique human promise. When using defenses, healthy Autonomous persons use mostly mature ones: suppression, altruism, humor, anticipation. When they use less mature defenses, they are able to forgive themselves and move on. “Right now I need to be like this, but I intend to act more maturely again when appropriate." Inner processes are complex and demanding to observe. As much as Autonomous persons need others, they also need privacy, time for self-reflection. The self is experienced as unfolding and constantly reappraised. Watching this “unfolding” of things is one of the main satisfactions at this stage. One’s precious life work consists in trying “to become the most one can be.” Personal growth, self-actualization and self-fulfillment are chief desires at this stage. Others are seen as the actors in their life dramas, which are equally fascinating to Autonomous persons. Wanting to help others grow is one of the strongest motivators for Autonomous persons. Psychologists, coaches and consultants often inhabit this stage, as do effective executives and leaders. When this need to have others “become the most they can be” encounters resistance, Autonomous persons may feel impatient with others’ slow development and frustrated with their “unwillingness” to grow despite their efforts. This is likely the central flaw of this stage. Autonomous persons tend to be those most convinced that higher development is better and should be fostered at all costs. Higher is believed to be better because the more differentiated and the more autonomous an individual becomes, the more one can claim that one has an objective (non-distorted) and realistic self-identity (Kegan, 1982). One can claim an authentic, truthful self. Authenticity, is therefore an important value in the Autonomous value repertoire. Many Autonomous persons see life as an open-ended journey. They believe that there is no predetermined way to follow for all human beings. Each individual has to find and create his/her own life style and is responsible for his or her self-fulfillment. Autonomous persons are interested in psychological questions and how to come to terms with inner conflict. Unlike people at the conventional stages, seeking therapy, advice, or consulting from others, is not seen as a weakness, but seen as a necessity. Autonomous persons have faith in their own and other people’s capacity to make meaning out of messes and difficulties. They can construe their own personal meaning without having to impose it on all others. They may also invite others’ solutions to conflict and respect their needs for autonomy. Sometimes Autonomous persons find the work to make a living and other ordinary constraints of life stultifying. They would prefer to enjoy their passions on their own terms. If leading an organization to greatness is one of those passions, it may be a fortuitous match. Autonomous persons may genuinely feel principled anger and righteous indignation towards the injustices of the world. They will stand up against society to express their personal convictions or to uphold their principles. Their anger does not usually seek a victim. They live their personal conviction according to self-evaluated, internal standards. “To walk the talk” becomes an expression of one’s moral character and authenticity. Irreconcilable role conflicts are felt deeply. Some Autonomous persons become charismatic moral leaders. When they defend what they believe to be a worthy cause, they often disregard negative consequences for themselves. But they may also be overly forceful with their convictions especially when they are fueled by principled anger. The combination of charisma and moral conviction can be a powerful negative force if not kept in check. The greater awareness of their inner depth also allows Autonomous persons to use dreams, fantasy, and imagination much more freely than persons at earlier stages. Their thoughts are allowed to take off and creativity is released. Their imagination is no longer constrained by logic and convention. Thinking outside the box is how one addresses issues. Because Autonomous persons are aware of human frailty as part of the human condition, they often express existential humor and their irony has a lighter touch than before. Impulse control, character development: Self-evaluated, internalized standards. Behavior becomes an expression of one’s moral principles. Toleration of multiple points of view. Concern with conflicting roles, duties, principles. Interpersonal style: One takes responsibility for relationships, but also desires autonomy. Relationships seen in terms of inevitable mutual interdependence. Toleration of others’ solutions to conflict. Respect for others’ autonomy. Non-hostile, existential humor. Cognitive level: time frame and social context again expanded. Capacity to see and embrace some paradox and contradiction. Toleration of ambiguity. Broad scope of thought. Perception of self as regulator of a self-system with interdependent parts within a larger by context. Conscious preoccupation: Concerned with individuality and self-fulfillment. Interested in the psychology of self. Coming to terms with conflicting needs. Chief anxiety: not to fulfill one’s potentiality, to neglect those principles of justice, tolerance etc. one holds dear, loss of courage. Impatience with others’ slow development, and “unwillingness” to grow. Internal dimension: One tries to make sense of oneself in terms of inner conflict and “polarities”. One tries to integrate into a coherent whole what one sees as one’s different selves at different times in different circumstances. Defenses: Mostly mature ones: suppression, altruism, humor, anticipation. When using less mature defenses, one can be forgiving and understanding towards self. “Right now I need to be like this, but I will be able to act more maturely again later”. Representatives: charismatic individuals who are ready for personal sacrifice in order to defend through personal example the moral principles they believe in. Language clues: Autonomous persons use a complex, flexible syntax; with a wide array of topics and concerns. They try to do justice to the complexity of life in their verbal expressions. They try to present a coherent exposition of their thinking and themselves. They use differentiated psychological vocabulary and understand circular causality in human relations. “Identity, growth, higher principles, self-fulfillment” are favorite terms and topics."

@Carl-Richard What do you mean by a lot of bottlenecks? Any examples of communities that you're referring to?

I had to leave a Spiral Dynamics Facebook group because the level of pettiness and groupthink conformity was unbelievable. It felt like a high school cafeteria. I was honestly really sad and pathetic. My guestimation is that most people in the group were at the Achiever level Stage Orange and lacked embodied values associated with Green, let alone Yellow.

Also read this which has worthwhile critiques of the idea of one having a "center of gravity" at a particular stage. Not sure who wrote this article as they didn't include their name on the PDF, but someone posted it on the FB debate. Can_you_be_at_a_level_of_development.pdf

@Matt23 Totally agree, at this point I'm just listening to Bonnitta and taking in what she's saying without making too much of an analysis or judgement around it.

I just read this PDF by Susanne Cook-Greuter which I felt does a great job of covering some of the pitfalls and challenges with Integral Theory, which she speaks to from a very high level (Construct/Ego Aware perspective) unlike much of the FB conversation / debate which feels like a more postmodernism critique...not to say it's not valid or worthy of consideration. I just appreciate the angle that Susanne takes in her PDF. Cook-Greuter, Assumptions versus Assertions.pdf

This is well said and aligns with my experience and understanding of it. But of course, Stage Yellow people are still humans and get triggered, annoyed and have blinds spots like everyone else. Especially if one is "cognitively" at Yellow but not integrated in other aspects like morality, interpersonal skills, spirituality, etc. Another factor that SD does not encapsulate is level of consciousness as it relates to nonduality. Someone can be Stage Blue and also the most loving, peaceful, accepting person you'll ever meet (far more than the average Yellow person) if they've done a lot of mediation work and are embodying a certain level of consciousness.

Was just about to post Bonnitta's video! I was hoping for more clarity on exactly how she was defining "Core Self" vs "Ego Self" as her thesis seems to center around this distinction. What I took away from her video was that basically 99% of our actions in life as driven by the subconscious which is heavily programmed in the pre-natal and early years of our life, which thereby "locks" us into conditioning that will continue to manifest itself regardless of which developmental stage we're at. So someone can be at Stage Green but highly traumatized, easily triggered and often acting from a highly wounded place, whereas someone at Stage Blue might be coming from a more "whole" self. Stage Theory would say the person in Stage Green is "higher" and therefore "better" given its own metric, but in a practical manner the more healthy adult at Stage Blue might be the type of person you'd rather have as your neighbor. The way to compensate for this, from what I think I heard Bonnitta say, is to help people develop their Core Self via healing modalities, shadow work, environmental improvements, etc in order to merge the Core Self and the Ego Self so that they're aligned. In other words, our actions as a Stage Green individual will match the values of Stage Green rather than our wounded self which resorts to childhood conditioning. Then what I heard her say is basically a long list of ways Stage Theory falls short and can create unnecessary complexity and only measures humans in an individualistic, left-brain oriented way, which obviously fails to account for the full expression of the human experience. Frankly, I'm not sure if I understand her core thesis accurately, so take what I said above with a grain of salt. Curious what you, @Matt23, and others gathered from it.

There is an interesting debate happening on multiple Facebook pages about whether Stage Theory including SD and Integral is "BS" and "colonial." Originally posted by Nora Bateson, daughter of Gregory Bateson, and followed up by Hanzi Freinacht (author of the metamodernism book "The Listening Society"). Lots of prominent stage Yellow thinkers contributing to the conversation. Nora Bateson's original post Hanzi's post

@Terell Kirby This is conflating a quality associated with Yellow with the actual lived experience of a Yellow individual. In general, Yellow people aren't "lone wolves" that don't socialize and have no need for friends. Yellow is still human, and if anything there is greater appreciation and awareness for the value of social circles, close friends, intimate relationships, and concepts like "emergence" that come through group containers and practices. I recommend checking out Rebel Wisdom and taking some of their online courses, where you can meet other Yellow-leaning people on Zoom. Also Emergent Commons is a new Mighty Networks page with lots of Yellow thinkers as well as GameB. Many on these sites are actually Orange/Green with cognitive abilities that reach Yellow, but are not fully embodied at Yellow, but hey, at least it's a start in the right direction. Wishing you luck on your journey!

@The Buddha The core of every religion is Truth. That said, the overwhelming vast majority of people who practice the religions, including Hinduism, are Stage Blue. That was my point, not that the core teachings (minus the dogma and mythic characters) are Blue. That doesn't even really make sense. Anyways, a bunch of hippies singing kirtan is Stage Green. I stand by that fully.

Excellent Stage Yellow conversation with Jamie Wheal and Scott Barry Kaufman who wrote the book Transcend about Maslow, which I’d also highly recommend. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/collective-insights/id1293899173?i=1000526604088

One perspective on Life is that it is constantly evolving towards greater complexity, and therefore Life is better than Death for it allows the evolutionary process to continue. If this is True, then it can be said that God favors Good over Evil and Life over Death for Good and Life allow for complexity to expand. But from the nondual perspective, there is just the Eternal Now with Life constantly shapeshifting forms. Are the waves moving towards greater complexity, or are they just arising and falling into the ocean of Nothingness? If so, does this mean everything is random, and that the Universe is orderless? Or is there indeed a Divine Order to existence? Perhaps it's both/and? The Dreamer is just dreaming, but in the dream the complexity of the dream characters are ever-evolving?