Jay Ray

If I think I am tracking what you are asking is like this: this is how the old model in science goes, but it has lots of flaws. using the materialistic paradigm everything is made up of atoms and molecules and photons ect. so if a photon hits my eye then it is converted to an electrical signal in the brain. an eye is made out of atoms. therefore, and atom hits another atom and then is sent to the brain which is made out of atoms. so then the question becomes. How do invisible atoms hitting other invisible atoms become light or color in our mind? a materialist would say "well the brain creates the image" but how? "well... the pathways in the brain" but how does it do that "there are billions of neurons" why do billions of neurons together make the color blue? "because that area of the brain is the part which does that" why? "science doesn't know yet... BUT IT WILL KNOW SOON!!!!" the brain without a doubt is highly correlated the content of consciousness. poke this part of the brain, you see colors. but the question that still intrigues me is from a non-dual point of view why is the brain needed at all?

@Moksha awesome, thanks!

I have watched leo's videos on the Neti Neti technique and I want to make it a habit but I have a few questions is the Neti Neti technique supposed to be a contemplation exercise using words and saying things like "where is the perceiver?" or "this isn't me". this seems quite different from others forms of meditation where I want to quite my mind. Can I do this while doing basic tasks like waling and driving? is 20 minutes a day a good start? should this be more of a repetition thing asking the same body parts and ego parts if they are me or should it try and explore. Is brute repetition key or is it more just sitting and contemplating whatever comes to mind first? when I first watched his videos on the self, and asking where "I" am at that time I felt confident that I knew where "I" was and that was the head, but then later this conceptual idea loosened a bit and now my conceptual idea is that I am nothing, However I still feel like this could be hiding something. My intellectual idea of my ego is hiding behind my own vale of spiritualty and most likely is still about the same but is just pretending that I am nothing. How should I proceed? Any other tips on how to make this a habit and do it regularly? Thank you

@The0Self awesome. thank you! I should ask myself "who is the one getting stuck?" I am not the one who gets confused, confusion is something that is observed.

I recently I found a series of albums by Leyland Kirby called, The Caretaker, in which it shows through music the stages of memory loss and dementia. I have listened to multiple hours from these albums and I can say that it is the single most emotional music you will ever hear. I am forever changed by the these songs. It forces your mind to mediate on the impermanence of life and aging but does it gracefully but also with blunt honesty. I recommend listening to them on a cloudy day while walking outside in nature and thinking, this day too will be forgotten. It gives you the feeling like you are melting away into a dream.

I wanted to collect peoples stories on why exactly YOU left your past stage blue religion so I can see some of the commonalities. What made you leave, is there an exact memory of something that was a turning point for you? Was there a conversation with someone or a video that you watched that changed your mind? Have you ever been one of those angry theists in your lifetime ? If you met yourself from the past when you were at stage blue, what would you say or ask your self? Thank you!

If I spend time trying to awaken, like multiple hours a day and then eventual I do, will this affect my future life or future karma in some way? will donating my time and money to help those who suffer affect my next life positively as well? maybe I should focus on that more? when others ask why I am meditating for hours a day and that I am "not being productive. wasting my time", what should I say? thank you!

@JosephKnecht ok, thanks for the advice.

About 6 mouths ago I started a small project, I started creating new words to describe the things that English didn't allow. Our thought process is bottle necked by the the words we use, so why not create brand new ones we need? our language is geared towards stage Orange so that limits our ability to self-actualize and think more clearly. the concepts we need for both spiritual and psychological growth could be improved with better language. like Leo says, learning means making distinctions so I decided to create a simple nomenclature for create custom words in the spiritual/ self-actualization path . my system tries to do the flowing reduce unnecessary mental effort allow for rapid creation of new ideas, model and concepts allow for possible deeper communication between people and allow for langue to expand and evolve more rapidly for example, the most importantly duality to understand is that between a feeling, and the thing which causes that feeling, which to my knowledge English doesn't have a word for these terms and people confuse them often so I created these words Emoclian: this refers to ONLY the emotion, this is the emotion that you are experiencing and not the situation. many different situations in life that your encounter lead to the same emoclian Vetrabute: the situation itself, this is the raw sensation data without any meaning or emotion. It just is. looking at a horror move just through the vetrabute side only, fear would not be produced. it is just the raw sensation data without meaning or emotion in your direct experince. I have found these words to be very useful and i thought I would share them but more importantly the process of names each emoclian and naming how each one feels so that you can think about your specific custom emotion is very useful. some other useful words i created Frickeler: an idea or thought which you do not identify with but has come into your awareness. When a thought I don't like comes into my head I say "Frickeler! I dis-identify with that thought, I do not need this thought to go away for me to be happy because I am aware that it is not a belief, it is a frickeler ". stomage: the psychical sensation in the body caused by an emotion. what word do you thinks lack from English that should be created? new please let me know

This video was very heartwarming. this guy is an agnostic but is very kind and has a very calm, respectful tactic for helping them realize the issue with their faith. great tactic for helping family member who are at stage blue. no anger, just respectful questions.

@Arcangelo yeah his videos are VERY convincing

@Alfonsoo sounds good, maybe this stuff could even become a mega thread. "helping stage blue mega thread"

That is awesome. I would recommend starting with explaining the neti neti method and then do spiral dynamics. net neti was the thing that started my spiritual journey. If you have any questions on anything please feel free to private message me.

this is for sure the biggest issue with this kind of thing that can be looked at as the essence of closed mindedness. It inst exclusively a religious problem in this case. I am still trying to work this out in my head too as I have not come up with a definite way of dealing with this but here is what I have come up with so far. "The bible is inherently true, the infallible word of the most holy all powerful God of everything our lord and savor Jesus Christ. " Lets look at these kind of sentences which are VERY common and dissect it. Islam does something very similar called a salawat. think of a salawat as a sentence and praise which builds up and describes your faith. It is a string of specific words that makes you feel good. It feels good to say these things and has a certain joy about it. I think this word is useful when looking at Christian stuff a well. like the sentence "God is mighty to save, he is mighty to save, Jesus the author of salvation. King of kings and lord of lords. He is risen, He is all powerful and mighty to save, blessed Jesus almighty amen. " this is a salawat to Jesus and produces pleasure to a Christian when they hear this. as Christianity is a spiritual technology, an apostate like myself can still feel the pleasure of worshiping a god in which I don't believe in anymore. I have the ability to worship anything and feel great from it. However, Christians DON'T know this, they think that ONLY Christ can give them this feeling, which is truly a shame. I don't want any person on earth to be limited in such a way. the "the bible says so" argument is a very hard one to move past. Because the way in which they identify with is so limited that they cant even think outside Christianity without experiencing major pain and suffering. when athiests would argue with me years ago I felt such fear and dread that it was like the feeling of exposing the most vulnerable part of yourself on stage. To get past this you need to love them and try and bridge the gap. I would recommend diving deep into the bible with an open mind which is the opposite of what they did. Over time you can become an expert at the bible and master this outdated technology and give it new life with a non-dual lens. this technology needs an upgrade. really show them what "the bible says" by embodying the Christ consciousness within you. The amount of mystic verses in the bible is actually quite high but VERY FEW Modern Christians actually "turn the other cheek and love your enemies as yourself" they say these things but really never do them. A deep redneck stage blue conservative rarely loves his enemies. watch Christians as they do the salawat. "God is mighty to save, he is the author of salvation, he is lord" their faces light up like a Christmas tree and they have joy on their face. this is one of the only parts of the Technology in which you can join in on. there is some kind of power that anyone can have. this is just a guess but It seems to me to open up the heart Chakra in a small way.

@Alfonsoo I think that there is a lot of conceptual work and thought that needs to be put in to be able to get stage SOLID blue up the spiral. this is something that fascinates me more than anything. during my angry atheist stage in life I really started to hate all religion and wanted away from stage blue but now I know that that is the worst think an apostate could do because that just plays into their dogma even more. People who are extremely dogmatic and are basically willing to die for Christ (like my relatives) these people are the hardest to convert, however just loving them and not judging them is the first step. I think that my life calling is to try and help stage blue so this could take me years to master a strategy. Even if you don't convert them, you WILL deepen you connection with these people (or they will show their true hateful nature).Either way you have nothing to lose by loving them. If you are willing to spend lots of time I would recommend reading the bible in depth and try and memories verses, put the same passion into the verses an show them that it is a valid spiritual technology that you want to understand more, but is NOT LITERALLY TRUE. Show them new interpretations that you have that go against their dogma. the "turn the other cheek" style of verses are SO SIMILAR to Buddhism that you could use this. If someone says "man I hate those people in group X" teach them to act like Jesus. tell them kindly to turn the other cheek. modern Christians dont really do this that much. also, remember that their dogma's are not 100% biblical. A lot of what they believe in is simply culturally ASSUMED to be in the bible.Show them how this is wrong and point towards the fact that their 2000 year old faith is more like 50% B.S. made up last century. maybe even allow your self to experience the "Joy of the lord" and pray with them. When I was a believer I got very spiritually high off of praising god. I can now conger up this feeling of love and praise without believing in it. It feels amazing, truly amazing to worship. let them know that you understand the feeling and emotion of worship and join in non-dogmatically. This feeling is from consciousnesses not Jesus. I still listen to Christian Rock music and get the same feeling of Praise that I got with believing in it. I get the high without the low of shame and repression of "sinful thoughts". but I think that: if you are willing to spend LOTS of time with Christians and go to church, love them, respect them and honestly listen to what they say this will increase the chances of them moving up the spiral. I feel like "helping stage blue" would be a greater topic to have a thread about. if you cant change their mind at least you can maybe move them up the spiral a small bit. Also branding spiritual practices like neti neti or mindfulness as "cool thought experiments" may be useful if they Christian in question is a bit closer to stage Orange. If you have any more questions please feel free to ask. this stuff is SO interesting for me. I am free now and I want to free others. I remember what it was like to be SO DOGMATIC and it is not fun in the long run. I am free.

one strategy that I have wanted to use with closed minded people is too love them and act like them but with different content. lets say you have a dogmatic fundamentalist Christian family member. They believe that their faith is unique and inherently true. Any attempted to categorize them or go meta and look at the deep similarities of all spiral stage blue religion is feared. This similarly is what broke me out of Christianity and up the spiral. If you want to break them out of dogma, then you need to show them the deep similarities of all stage blue faiths, especially the things that they preach is good. you need to go meta. Christianity wants a monopoly on love and faith and Joy I was taught that ONLY JESUS can give you everlasting peace and that all other faiths give temporary peace . Buddhism and Hinduisms was taught to be demonic and evil but might make you feel good for the short life and then there will be an eternal afterlife of pain in hell. but other faiths say Exactly the same thing I bet that Islam also thinks of Buddhism and Hinduism as demonic. the love which Christianity gives to stage red people living a tough life is enough to convert them. so you will need to love the Christians even more to get them closer to awaken. fight conditional love with unconditional love. love them unconditional unlike how Christianity only gives conditional love. Don't be the angry Atheist (at least to their face). Deep similarity between stage blue is what really brought me out of it . It is what made me question it and is still the thing that I think that most Blue religious people try and avoid at all cost. Fundamentalist Christians hate being compared to anything similar. they try and hide, blame and scapegoat any similarity. They try and isolate there kids from any outside religious or faith system, unless it is under strict ridicule from a pastor I recommend that you embody the positive sides of what Christians claim to support the fruits of the spirit are "unconditional" love joy peace patients self control do these things non dogmatically and show them that a static, never changing "word of god" is not needed to do these things. You can do all of this stuff without even ever hearing of the bible. Just please don't try and be the stereo typical atheist and say "the bible is horrible and I hate everything in it" there is some wisdom and some B.S. the bible is one spiritual technology out of 1000's and really needs to be looked at with a stage yellow lens. look for the similarities without jugging them. The one thing that Christians do that you can through back at them is being a missionary of sorts. A Christian will try and show peace and love to someone in stage red to get them to conform and be a better more rounded person, you can do the exactly same thing. Acknowledge the good the dogma does compared to stage Red and help "preach" to the Christians and try not to say "you are wrong, you need to be more open minded". i would say "I think that Jesus was a great guy and I fully accept you and your faith. I don't personally believe that Jesus was Lord and creator of the world, but I see the value that it has with creating a sense of safely, community and life purpose, I see it as a wonderful technology that many people need in their life (stage red). Your missionary efforts are truly done in a great place of love and I respect you greatly for trying to make a difference. However, this technology of Christianity needs a lot of improvement, it needs to change to adapt to a modern world, there is a huge number of people who need a thing SIMILAR to the CHRISTIAN system of Faith but that will work for LGBT+, People and people who want to awaken scientifically and spiritually. I think that concept of love joy, peace, patients and self control are some of the best virtues that our generations disparately needs but Christianity is not the most adapt technology for the job, it is starting to crumble with the rise of Atheism and a lot of atheist aren't getting the teaching that works for them and this causes suffering. " I would ask this Christian "would you like an Atheist to have love, joy, peace, patients and self control WITHOUT CHRISTIANITY involved? or would you prefer that that Christ had a monopoly on those emotions and the ONLY Christians had those and that BILLIONS OF PEOPLE would suffer?" I would say to the Christian "I know that Christ saved you from the pain and suffering of your troubled past (stage red) and that your life improved immensely from the preachers that converted you when you were young, I want to do the same for all people regardless of what they believe. I don't want to invalidate your experience, stage Red SUCKS and I am truly happy that you evolved passed it, your emotional high from leaving stage red must of been huge but I know that there is even more joy away from your faith. I want to help you go even farther in exactly the same way that your pastor helped you. If you want me to, I can teach you about non-duality and mysticism. " "I want everyone regardless of any background, sexual, orientation and scientific curiosity to have these things, they are essential to human well being and Christianity needs to either adapt or give way to some newer spiritual technology in order to help the most amount of people. I want YOU to be free of all suffering and mental distress to and I want you to know that I LOVE YOU in exactly the same way that Christ says for YOU TO LOVE ME. " If you have any questions about my answer please feel free to ask check out darkmatter2525 on you tube, he has some very great ways to transcend stage blue into stage Orange.

@Frenk notice how you don't fear other religions versions of hell, lots of stage blue and red cults and religions have a hell and you probably only fear the ones you were taught. you dont fear that hell a random tribe in the amazon believes in.

@Heart of Space thank you, I think I will try and look deep into this feeling. I have had the word compassion twisted and distorted so much that I am glad to hear that it can feel "wholesome and positive". thank you

I have a quick question, I know this may make me look like an emotionless robot but I really want to know what does compassion feel like for those on the spiritual path? for years I have felt stage blue guilt and this was called "compassion" . " look at all of those poor people in other countries who have nothing, you don't deserve any of this stuff that you have, you should have "compasion" on others who have less because you don't deserve this life and all of your stuff."but this felt a lot like guilt and shame, saying "I wast good enough" or "I dont deserve to be happy" or "I deserve to suffer like others suffer but for some weird reason you got this material stuff and a life that you don't deserve". What does compassion feels like at higher vibrations? is it a good feeling or a bad feeling? If I see someone suffering, then do I have to suffer with them in order to feel "compassion". What does compassion mean for you? is compassion anything close to the feeling of guilt, shame or unworthiness? there is so much suffering in the world and I feel like i have been trying to ignore and not think of it. I dont demonize or ridicule anyone I just try and avoid feeling their suffering. I feel emotionally week right now but I want to know how to deal with this moving up the spiral and towards a more spiritual life. Thank you

@Nahm I have never thought that other peoples suffering is a belief that my mind creates, very interesting idea. The idea that "a person is suffering, therefore "I" should suffer in order to be compassionate" this is littered with dualites. It assumes "I" and "other" thank you

how does this relate to people and their suffering? moving towards a more spiritual life, what is the best way to look at other people's suffering? should I feel what they feel or just love them without taking on their "baggage". Thank you

@WellbeingSeeker yeah it was very similar to the video (less extreme though). I will just say that the experience for me at least was that It was very fun and it made me feel more alive and loved. totally recommend with safety measures. just think "my subconscious will takeover and I wont judge or try and stop any non-dangerous urge. any safe urge I will give into and let "something" take over this body"

@WellbeingSeeker in example 5, everyone there is in a space of "total social acceptance" (for the time being ignoring stage blue traps of course). they can let them self's just be and this feeling is so amazing. It feels like love, pure love and the part of yourself that is hated is gone for a few minutes. every amount of social judgment is gone, they can just BE. they can just dance and wiggle and move randomly, they don't have to act in a way that society deems as normal. all self judgement, self-criticism, social anxiety and fear is gone. the ego is weekend slightly here (I think). I crave this feeling so much. LOL

I have had a very similar experience to something like this happen to me a few mouths ago and I will try and explain it the best I can. I was meditating and I was looking at my hand and I thought "who is in control of this hand? I am going to try and see if I can remove the feeling of being in control of my hand and see if it can be automatic without "me" doing it". so I did this and and after a few minutes of moving my hand in a random way the feeling of "me" controlling it was gone, it was being done automatically, but I could come back at any moment. a few days later I was on a walk and then I was thinking "Who is really in control of me?" and pondering other spiritual things. I got this feeling like I may have just believed that I was in control my whole life when actually is was just automatic. this feeling of control is so thin that moving your hand in a repetitive way for 3 minutes can make it seem like it will automatically continue without "you" untill you stop it. I.E. autopilot mode for your body. I then decided to "give up" control to this other automatic process. maybe it was my subconscious or a spirit, I am not sure what to say. but many weird things started to happen. first, I just let my self walk automatically, then it felt like my normal walk turned into a child-like skipping and I started dancing like a lunatic (I was alone at the time). I tried this again by saying " I give up control, I will embrace any action that my body is doing. I wont judge it nor will try and control, any act that is done from my body is ok". a few days later, I got the urge to walk o the floor like a dog and I did it, I then felt like I was a dog for a few seconds running around and felt like it was not "me" doing it "I" am the one who stops it not controls it. what your body wants to do will happen automatically when "you" dont stop it. "I" had the ability to come back at any time, because I believed that I can, however, it is a possibility that these people's beliefs are such that some other entity is doing it and everyone around them is cheering them on too which adding to the belief. thinking that they are being possessed this makes it so much more powerful for them and they may not have an "off switch." one thing I will say is this feeling for me was amazing. It feels like all of the social awkwardness and being uncomfortable in your own body goes away for a few seconds or minutes. It is a beautiful experience and I bet that an experience like what I would be enough to keep someone in a stage blue faith because of how freeing it can be. I recommend trying it, even if you dont believe in an entity taking over, you at least believe that your subconscious mind is VERY powerful. stage Orange and green can do this too, say to yourself "I let my subconscious take over my body, I do not judge myself for any action that I do, I can leave this state at any time. any urge to move or to talk or to do anything non-voilent is OK and I accept it fully. I will let the urge to move or dance or whatever, do what it wants to do if it is safe. " hope this was helpful.