Kelpie

First off, I have not done any of the drugs that users of this forum have used to reach enlightenment. However, I have always believed that life was something incomprehensible and beyond our understanding rather than the solid materialistic world most people believe it to be. After reading through this forum, I still have 2 questions. 1- For those of you who believe we are all God generating the universe- How can you be sure that we don't live in an objective reality that simply produced beings with consciousness who CANNOT DISTINGUISH whether we live in an objective reality or not, INSTEAD OF us simply being god generating reality? And when I use the term objective reality, I mean an objective reality that is beyond any sort of comprehension at all. Because any perception is by definition, biased and subjective. Objective reality can never be known by consciousness. 2- Whether there is an objective reality or whether consciousness is all that exists, why do we perceive an orderly world instead of PURE randomness? Thank you

@Nahm but I don't think I'm suffering. I recently discovered that simply going out and enjoying nature more puts my mind at peace. It's human society and all man-made creations, artificial, meaningless and ugly, that has been the root of all my suffering. And again, how can you prove that we are all one, and not just individual consciousnesses believing we are all one? If the temperature of the Earth's atmosphere rose by 50 degrees, I don't think suffering would be an option no matter what I believed or could create with my mind :-). As for your argument that we create our reality, I again argue that it is much more likely we subjectively perceive an objective reality, because if all of existence was indeed created by my consciousness, it should be completely random, rather than an orderly experience.

I don't think this is all there is, just all that we can experience. I think there is an unimaginably infinitely complex objective reality that happened to produce beings of consciousness like us. We just happen to be so lucky that this objective reality, aka "God" in my mind, is benevolent(for lack of a better word), by enabling consciousness to experience pure infinite love instead of pure horror and randomness. I am open-minded to changing my beliefs, but after reading many stories told by people on psychedelics, it seems much more likely that their state of mind was altered by the drugs to BELIEVE they are God, and consciousness is all that exists, rather than that being the underlying truth.

@Member ok if I am God and you are God, then we are all God are we not? @ traveler what I mean by randomness is, why does our consciousness not fluctuate between experiencing all possible worlds at all times? Why do we not jump from experiencing as a human one moment, to a bingo ball the next, to a prime number the next, to some unimaginable entity our consciousness cannot even fathom the next, etc etc, instead of experiencing the human experience continuously? I don't think you are really understanding what i mean by randomness. also, after reading many stories of NDErs, I believe that when we die, we do experience unconditional love and merge with a universal consciousness. All this still does not disprove of an objective reality that we cannot fathom.

Ok, I am God and God is me, doesn't really tell me anything, except that I am myself(aka God). And are you God as well?

An atom does not need to perceive spacetime to exist. Furthermore, we have no idea what an atom is. Imagine if we shrunk 10^10000 times in size. An atom would then become an unimaginably large universe, and details about its structure on unimaginably small scale would reveal itself to such an observer that perceives not through human senses of sight limited to an infinitesimally small sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum, but perhaps through senses we cannot fathom. If by God you mean yourself, then the statement, "we are all God" becomes "we are all ourselves" and loses all it's grandeur don't you think...?

Consciousness to me seems not all-knowing and omniscient, but the EXACT OPPOSITE. Infinitely limited in its perception.

Spacetime is certainly a mind construct, but I never said objective reality needs to have either qualities. If it exists, objective reality is completely beyond any consciousness's ability to fathom. But how can you prove it does not exist? Also, people on this forum throw around the word God very loosely. What do you mean by God?

My question to people who have attained enlightenment, how can you distinguish between 1- An objective reality exists, it cannot be known or understood, and we simply believe we are god because as beings of consciousness, our own subjective reality is all we can ever know, and 2- Objective reality does not exist, and only consciousness exists.

To me, existence is something that cannot be known or understood. I currently believe, but acknowledge I may be wrong, that an infinitely complex objective reality does exist but it cannot be known by any consciousness.

I would like to believe that there is a higher entity in objective reality, beyond any possible imagination, that is "benevolent" in nature precisely because we are not experiencing pure horrific randomness rather than order, instead of us each being God.

In mathematics, there are an infinite number of sizes of infinity. The integers are the smallest size, the irrational numbers the next smallest size. It seems to be the number of random realities should be the largest possible size of infinity, and the number of orderly realities the smallest size of infinity. And yet here we are dreaming of an orderly world.

Yes I understand your argument, I just don't agree with it at all.

I'm sorry synchronicity, I don't think we are really understanding each other.

According to this forum, worlds do not "exist", only consciousness dreaming of the world. So again, why do we perceive an orderly world our entire "life" or "dream", whatever you want to call it, when our reality could have collapsed into randomness at any point?

All right. then tell me, if consciousness exists to "experience" without regard to whether its experience is orderly or random, where can you find a consciousness that is experiencing pure randomness?

Ok, but if we are God generating the universe, why does our reality continue to be orderly each infinitesimal increment of "time"? If the number of purely random realities outnumber orderly realities by infinity, why has our reality not collapsed to pure randomness at any of the infinitely small units of time that has made up our lives? (I use the word time with full awareness that it is an illusion, I just needed an appropriate word to illustrate my point)

1- Of course objective reality can exist, in its infinitely complex nature. It just can never be known or understood by any consciousness. We can just be living in an objective reality that happened to produce beings of consciousness who believe they are God manifesting the universe when on psychedelics. Of course, we might actually be God generating the universe, my point is how can you distinguish between these two equally convincing possibilities? Both are beyond our imaginations. 2- That doesn't answer my question. If we are beings of pure consciousness, there are an infinite number of realities we can generate, and the number of realities that are completely random outnumber the number of realities that are orderly by a ratio of infinity. Also, If we are God generating the universe, why is "survival" needed at all if consciousness cannot "die"?