Flyboy

Depends where you hang out. I agree they are uncommon, but I knew several at Harvard. Plus, most people are on a spectrum which spans more than one stage. There are a number of yellow+ people on this forum. I'd also say it's quite common to meet a Green person with Yellow leanings... people who are on the way there but haven't yet gotten the "push."

Or better yet, understand Green and then move on ASAP. Green is like the teenagers of Spiral Dynamics... they're old enough that they really should know better, and yet they don't and it is maddening sometimes. It's much harder to forgive Green ideology (and esp radicalism) than it is to forgive Red/Blue. Yellow+ is where life becomes really interesting and you actually have a shot at reaching clear air.

That's actually what is so amazing about his channel, if you watch his content going a while back: you can SEE the difference as his path unfolds. The "old Frank" was very clearly an ego, and spoke differently, held himself differently, did all kinds of "cool and artistic" stuff, etc. Literally the day after his final awakening (or 4th path attainment, if you'd prefer that), he was totally different. So free, so unburdened, so just absolutely sure of "this". I have watched him since then and even though he is young and a "bro bodybuilder" (haha), I sense he is completely genuine and has gone deeper than most spiritual teachers. He's definitely an inspiration that it is in fact possible to do it "the hard way," and worth it. Loved this interview, one of his best yet, mostly because this interviewer was very genuine and humble, unlike others.. (cough Atlas).

Second! This book is outstanding and littered with enlightenment wisdom, packaged in a fun children's story. The Neverending Story is another like that.

Nah, it's gotta be 5-No-Me-O-DMT

I agree with you on a huge portion of your work and am very grateful for it! I'm certainly not anti-psychedelic; they have been one of the most important discoveries and catalysts of my adult life. I wouldn't have even discovered your content at all if I hadn't been on a fortuitous late-night youtube quest to learn more about DMT and its strange cousin, 5-Meo

100% agree. You need to gradually ramp up dosages over repeated experiences, spread over weeks and months with time in between to integrate. Psychedelics are exceptionally "smart" in that they will give you what you need (and to some extent ask for). Light doses will help you work through internal issues; heavier doses help you with really deep stuff and/or get mystical. Deeper is not always better. You don't break into someone's house, you knock politely. Treat psychedelics this way

Cool man, yet another evasion to a highly nuanced and advanced challenge to your work. If I'm incorrect, engage my arguments directly. I'm every bit as smart as you, Leo, and have put tremendous effort into understanding. I'm happy to be wrong, but your unwillingness to engage with ANY of my direct challenges speaks volumes about which of us is self-deceived. Your presumed infallibility is so dangerous. I really believed in you, so I'm really disappointed in your lack of self-honesty here.

@Leo Gura You're using a conflation to dodge what I'm saying. Yes, it's true that the present moment is itself "directly true" in our experience. But you cannot make ontological claims about the nature of that experience based on conceptual understanding from past experiences in which you remember having an understanding of such a thing. Your memory of those experiences is happening NOW, and as such is purely conceptual NOW. To make claims about the ineffable absolute with concepts is nonsense, which is why you simply can't say "it's all imagination." You can't get around this problem--if it is not your direct experience right now (and I mean the actual knowing of the ineffable), then anything you say about it is mental masturbation. If you think you "know", you're fooling yourself. Enlightenment MUST be your moment-to-moment experience, or you simply aren't there because your mind is still fabricating all kinds of delusion right at the level of basic perception. One concept you love to use but don't really question is this idea of "levels of consciousness". You are being loose with your definition and using that looseness to justify things that you shouldn't. Basic consciousness should properly mean "a moment of knowing" of some sensation or thought. That's it. You use it interchangeably with "depth of nuance / understanding of context," which is useful for things like Spiral Dynamics but frankly a totally different meaning. You're using this second meaning when you say "infinite consciousness," which is actually kind of funny because you're actually getting off on the idea of something infinitely conceptual. This is a trap. It's the VR simulation of the real enlightenment (which is an illustrative analogy, not a duality). This is really the whole problem with your work: it is inescapably based on concepts alone. And the real understanding of what enlightenment IS (and what Reality IS) is therefore lost. Also, be really careful with how you use the duality defense. Again, there's a difference between ultimately saying "all dualities collapse" and using that line to eliminate distinctions that expose your errors. Dualities exist AND don't exist. At an absolute level, of course, we're all enlightened because there's no difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment. At the relative level of your mind, however, you are not "awakened" because somebody told you about nonduality (which is, in a sense, no different than remembering it from an experience because both are concepts). The reason meditation is different is because it is about unraveling the identity which leads to fabricating distinctions where no distinctions actually exist--and this affects your present experience. As the illusion is deconstructed, perception stops being clouded and you eventually see what is actually Right Here, Right Now. As long as any shred of ego/separation exists in your mind-body, you won't have access to this. I'm sorry man, but you need to do this work if you ever want to actually understand that which is nonconceptual in an ultimate way. There's a reason ALL the masters tell you psychedelics are "not it", and it's not just ego or lack of sufficient usage.

Of course it is. What you're talking about is like someone in a VR dream taking off the goggles, being like "whoa cool real world", putting the goggles back on, and then returning to a VR world IN WHICH an awakening also occurred. As long as you are in the VR world, you can never be referring to the real awakening. There is absolutely no way for you to be "conscious" of Truth except NOW, because now is all there is. And you are not awake right now, because you experience reality through the dense layers of fabrication of your identity. So anything, literally anything, that you take away from your psychedelic experiences is relegated to concept and thus "isn't it". But this isn't even the crux of your issue. The crux of your issue is you have not deconstructed the fabrication of self, which goes all the way down to the root of experience. Identity is embedded in the layers of mind, body, heart, gut, and even extremely subtle fabrications like time and space. It's even embedded in consciousness itself (within a moment of "knowing", which is what consciousness IS, there is still the subtle I-thought). If you want to awaken, you must clearly see through ALL GROUNDS, including the ground of identifying as God. That seems counterintuitive conceptually, which is why you reject it so vehemently, but that is self-bias and delusion acting on your part. Truly enlightened folks have let go of all grounds to rest in a place of simultaneously full emptiness. A "place" of total freedom, boundless spontaneity, and "neitherness". It neither exists nor doesn't exist, but gives rise to both. It is the Mystery of Being. This is what you are missing, Leo. And you just can't get to it on psychedelics. It's not a function of meditation either, but truly of letting go of all clinging, fabrication, and identification. The dependent origination of illusion must collapse simultaneously.

@Leo Gura You've done a remarkable job of twisting nonduality into a belief structure for yourself that you can't see. You have done psychedelics, which led to "awakenings" or whatever you want to call it, and then returned to your "normal" asleep state. From the asleep state, you have remembered those awakenings by turning them into concepts. You have then taken those concepts and applied them to your metaphysical belief system, without acknowledging that they are concepts (and thus have convinced yourself they aren't beliefs either, which of course is a belief too). In doing so, you've literally created with your finite mind the tautology that is so indefensible, and (not) coincidentally a very nice ground for your ego to hold on to. You've created the most sophisticated hole to live inside of, and are very cozy there. Unfortunately, it's not Truth.

This is such a cop-out answer! You can't use "imagination" as a blanket excuse to ignore any aspect of realization that you don't like. You're so wrapped up in imagination in an absolute sense that you misapply it to experience happening NOW. You can't use the concept of imagination to invalidate direct experience. That is just as stupid as a scientist using a concept to invalidate consciousness. Don't you see that you have created a circular defense concept that gives you absolute authority, creates a hugely egotistical ground for you to stand on (God realization), and most importantly is NOT something you are experiencing in the present moment? This is the definition of delusion. There is no ground, not even God or consciousness. The way you are thinking about these things is still ultimately conceptual (and it MUST be so, since they are not happening NOW for you), and the only thing that WANTS there to be a ground is your spiritual ego, which is definitely alive and well.

Bold statement coming from someone also not awake I've said it before and I'll say it again: you're missing something utterly foundational, and you are so in love with your model of reality that you seem totally blind to it now (and to even being told you are blind). Just take your discussion of cessation, for example. Super clear you have no idea what it really is or why it's even important (and also that you never actually read MCTB). A cessation is NOT enlightenment, nor does anyone who understands a damn thing about enlightenment think that it is. It's ironic that you're always harping on other people to "do the work" when the reality is that is YOUR shadow, Leo. You only see God THROUGH Leo, and as such the shadow of self is on every facet of it. You will never ever be enlightened until you shed the self, in all of its magnificent nuances. And no psychedelic can do that for you.

I'd really recommend reading Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha and The Mind Illuminated in addition to (possibly prior to) Seeing that Frees. Together those will give you a solid understanding of meditation and the depth to which you can go. Your daily practice is building a foundation which you will want to deepen through retreats. Sign up for a serious 10-day vippassana retreat when you're ready... you *most likely* will not have mystical experiences from daily meditation until you are much deeper and have developed strong concentration. From one perspective, the initial goal is stream-entry, which will then open doors to more advanced territory. There are other maps and models, but I think they mostly converge up to stream-entry (ie. your first cessation), and this is achievable on a single retreat if you have the right foundation going into it. Also remember, much of the path is happening in parallel and on multiple levels, so you won't necessarily see "results" until down the road when things start interconnecting and reinforcing. In order to build a house you must first grow the trees

Instead of obsessing with ontological considerations... I would posit considering whether this is just something the Universe decided you needed to hear in the way you heard it with the intention you had when asking. We talk a lot about the universe being infinitely interconnected, intelligent, alive, and perfect. But have you digested what that means? If your every thought and intention is "magic", interacting with the greater infinity in an inconceivable reflection of mutual causality, many things become possible/inevitable that you probably would dismiss outright otherwise. For example, you might think Tarot cards are totally nonsense. But when you consider that with strong intention, perhaps you move the Universe as it moves you. Perhaps it helps you think about something that you needed help with on your journey. The dance, the balance, the interplay... I've seen plenty of evidence of these things in life. It might surprise you to find out what becomes available when you start trusting these things.

I think I'm pretty close, though a bit more on the logical / systems side of it than the intuitive / flow side. It's hard to say exactly though because I think I am intellectually "higher" in terms of understanding, but in terms of realization / actualization maybe less so. How do you think about the difference between understanding and embodiment? I'm always cautious of "aboutism" when it comes to judging where I'm at on these scales.

Thanks for blatantly ignoring all of my detailed questions trying to get you to look at yourself (I really don't care what Shinzen is or isn't). I've stuck up for you on many occasions and recommended your channel to many people, but I'm starting to realize that you really are falling deeper and deeper into some kind of narcissism. Very sad for Actualized.org.

@Leo Gura Alright, let's unpack some assumptions, Leo: 1. You are assuming that being "God-realized" is a real thing 2. You are assuming you "know" and that Shinzen "does not know" 3. You are assuming your insights are more genuine / advanced than others 4. You are assuming you are NOT missing something important 5. You are assuming that although these masters insistently claim there is something unfathomable about enlightenment that has nothing to do with psychedelics, that they are WRONG, despite lacking a personal experience with what they are talking about 6. You are assuming that you CAN experience "Truth" while functioning from the perspective of the egoic self (ie. you still experience separation, self-identification, and awareness from an egoic perspective) 7. You assume that "ego" is some reified thing that disappears with the right psychedelic experience, rather than something much more nuanced: the root identification your mind has with a myriad of patterns, behaviors, implicit beliefs, and feelings (even of awareness) that penetrates all the way to the core of your experience Basically, you are engaged in some serious self-deception of your own. You will not acknowledge this because it threatens the identity you have as a "God-realized teacher" who gets to "speak from above" to everyone. You betray this identity constantly, in all of your communications. I say this not to criticize but mainly because it makes me sad. I wish someone could get through to you. You are one of the best sources of wisdom I have found and it's literally painful to see you doing this, blind to your own wisdom.

Well, AtR has a 1000 page pdf you can download for free that should get you started (I have not read it yet, but heard great things). Depending on where you're at, Seeing that Frees is one of the best deep dives from the Buddhist perspective. You would do well to understand other things first though, like the stages of insight, Jhanas, maps of the path, etc. So maybe invest time in MCTB and TMI first / simultaneously. I'm also really enjoying the book "Awake" by Angelo Dilullo. There are about a billion books on Dharma, some of which cover specific aspects really well. I think you'll have to dive in and then start following your interest / personal progression. Buddhism has one of the most systematic approaches, but don't discount the value of exploring various other methods as well as you go. We're after Freedom, not a tradition Also don't forget that doing the practice is the most important part, by far.

So well said. I echo that I am simultaneously incredibly grateful to Leo for tireless mountains of work that is lifechanging for so many people (myself included), WHILE maintaining a tough-love criticism of what I have come to see as a deep blind spot in his approach.

Enlightenment is possible in ~5 years of dedicated practice. Sometimes even much less than that. You should drop the arrogance you have about the "levels of consciousness" that you've reached, which itself is a story and idea, and certainly not happening NOW. Did you actually read all those books on your booklist? I'm skeptical sometimes. You lack a deep understanding of what "traditional" enlightenment is really about. Have you experienced the Jhanas? Have you had a cessation? Do you have any idea what luminosity looks like in waking sober consciousness? Do you understand dependent origination and emptiness, especially dependent fabrication of perception and consciousness? You think you know "so much" that you have constructed catch-all defenses to shore up your spiritual ego from the threat of actually doing this very detailed, subtle, and brutally honest work (such as: "it's all your imagination and you'll just say anything to convince yourself you're not what I say" and "time doesn't exist so enlightenment is eternal" - both copouts). It's just wild to me that you can make 3 hour videos on self-bias and self-deception and yet be totally blind to your own. Wait for it.... "You're just God trying to talk me out of knowing that I'm God." Okay bro.

I mean, it goes much deeper than this. Perception itself arises dependently with clinging and the fabrication of self. When clinging at every level of your being ceases, so does perception AND consciousness itself. There isn't even nothing, only _____, a gap in your experience. This is what a cessation is. And also why cessation is so important--realizing that fabrication goes all the way down to the level of consciousness and perception itself is pretty powerful in de-reifying all of these. This is also why psychedelics aren't going to help you fully realize the nature of reality--you are always experiencing and thus reifying whatever perception you have. No matter how divine or transcendent, you must realize that IT TOO is fabricated before true freedom is accessible. Illusion and clinging and identification are the barriers to ultimate realization, and no psychedelic can fully overcome them.

The cracking of my mind, plain and simple. Leo's clear, well-reasoned, integrative way of seeing reality finally broke the chains holding my paradigms together, and set me on the course of my spiritual journey. It has taken me far away from Leo, but I credit Actualized gratefully for being the catalyst, equipping me with a foundational set of tools, and reliably being a goldmine of holistic thinking.

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html This may help contextualize this stage for you. AtR has some of the deepest material you will find on awakening (which also means you probably won't understand it until you are close to that stage yourself, FYI).

Okay, but lets not take Leo Gura as an authority on enlightenment, Adyashanti has more experience in this Shots fired, and well-aimed as well