Fran11

Definetly. There are so many aspects to this topic.

@integral You are over-exaggerating my claim in your mind. I didn't say vegan diets are the best for every person and propouse. All I said was that people who really cannot tolerate a proper vegan diet (which is not the same as having an allergy to a particular food, or a bad planned diet) are extremely rare exceptions. If you have "mountains of evidence" against this, just provide some.

Interesting experience! Thanks for sharing. I think I understand what you mean. But I don't think it works that way in the case of Enlightened people. Forgetting means seeing trough the mind's filtters, which are what creates the sense of duality. Non-enlightened people need to "forget" or shut-off those filters in order to experience non-duality. That's why in sober meditation you need to completely silence your mind in order to enter Samadhi. Or by doing years of daily mindfulness and self-inquiry (which probably is your case) those filtters are slowly being dismanteled and non-dual consciousness first begins to reveal itself in those flashes when you see trough the filters, which is what I feel you are calling "forgetting". Enlightened people's (meaning someone who's in permanent non-dual consciousness) mind is rewired in such a way that it doesn't create those dualistic filters anymore, they are gone for good, and the mind can be active without creating the sense of separation.

He was never born

By contemplating, my conclusion is that although they overlap, are not the same. And by highlighting the distinctions (the similarities are quite obvious) we can achieve a more nuanced understanding. SD is society oriented, and ED is individual oriented. So, a particular individual can have Orange values but he/she may just have absorbed them from culture, so this doesn't necessarily mean he/she is an Expert / Achiever, could well be at the Conformist Stage. The same with Green values. They don't necessarily make you a Pluralist. You can also be a young Conformist and take modern Green ideas from your culture. This is all about the "Content VS Structure" distinction. Let me know what you think. P.S.: Another important point is that Ego generally develops without skipping Stages, while SD values can be taken directly from culture. If you live in an advanced society, you are not going to be very exposed to Red values, but you'll certainly go through the Impuslive Ego Stage.

@tuckerwphotography Yup, that's basically my point. Yup, that's basically my point. There's big difference beetween having really developed yourself to the level of those high ideals, and just having unthoughtfully absorbed them from culture and wanting to be politically correct/socially accepted.

No, they are not assumtions. We already have 78 millions of vegans in the world, it's not some new unknown thing we're talking about. The data indicates there's no problem if you do it properly, that's what the WHO claims. If you are gonna contradict or question the most importan and large health organization in the world, which has made this conclussion by looking over lots of controlled scientific studies, you have to at the very least provide some solid non-anecdotal evidence to make your case. Otherwise you are just making shit up.

It is true. There are vegans who are allergic to certain foods, but they just avoid those. Those rare cases where they really need meet for whatever reason, we allow them if there's no alternative. You can bring up evidence about this being common and frecuent if you have it. If not, you are just making up problems. Solutions are never 100% effective. That's why we still have humans being murdered, raped and tortured. It's all about harm reduction, not perfection.

In a sense, yes. But there aren't that many people who cannot tolerate a vegan diet. You would have to suffer form some very specific health condition. The WHO aproves veganism for people of all ages, I think it has already been stated.

Yes of course, they greatly overlap and that is quite easy to see. My objective here was to highlight that they are not always the same. I find it more useful than simplistically matching the Stages. A highl-scool kid who happens to live in an advanced sociey and absorbs Green values is not always really a Pluralist. He may be, I'm not saying he can't, but not necessarily.

Socialism works in already socioeconomic developed countries. Consider Latinamerican socialism VS Northen Europe. Poor and highly corrupt countries can't afford big Governments. They have to develop first, otherwise they end up like Venezuela, Cuba and Argentina. In rich countries the game is different. That's what both Liberals and Conservatives are in denial about. Everyone just wants to apply their pet recipie out of dogma without considering the context. It's Tier 1 thinking.

Changing is painful, so life pushes us forward by making the concequences of not-changing even more painful

Please don't forget to touch upon qualia, I find it to be one of the most obvious and easily accessible refutations of reductionist materialism. Neurosciece has NOTHING, and they love to sweep it under the rug.

Interesting case study

- I'm asking from a collective perspective, not an individual one. - Consider what is healthy both for Red and also for the higher stages. - Also consider that countries have very different proportions of Red, it's not equally problematic to have 5-10% than to have 35-45%.

Haha, it's a good way to put it.

Yes, thay seems to be the key when looked at from a higher point of view. We experiece physicality in linear time, but there's no time for The Mind.

Yes, I agree. But that isn't what I'm talking about. I am refering to Conciousness' ability to recall/recreate "similar enough appearences", after the original ones are gone from our perception. I'm not talking about the "individual mind" believing they are "the same". If we deny that the dream is sort of a continuous thread of imagination, which includes also things outside of the perceptual field, consistency doesn't make sense. Imagination is highly intelligent and consistent, and the complexity and intelligence of that process is not always accesible from the perceptual field. If it was, there could not be low egoic levels of conciousness and everyone would be in an omniscient God-mode all the time.

When you say the universe isn't mathematical, and that saying that is just a projection, I understand what you mean in the sense that math relies on man-made symbols and concepts that are not "out there". But doesn't math still point to actual qualities of the universe? Any word I put out there you may say it's an abstraction, and it is. But still, conceptualizations sometimes point to things you can find in actuallity. For example isn't it true that everything that's limited exists in what we may call quantites? What counts as a unit of measure and the symbols we use are arbitrary, and we could deconstruct them all. But in the relative sense, things do exist in what we may call quantities (all objects are not equally "large", or equally "heavy", etc.) Those words themselves are concepts, but if you lift two objects, one with each hand, you will actually feel that one is more heavy than the other. You may call this difference whatever you want, or not label it at all, but it's still a real distinction within conciousness. The same way red looks different from green prior to our linguistic labeling.

Yes, that's a great idea. I had never thought about that before making this thread. @Forestluv also mentioned sports. Thanks guys. True. I can see how young people how are born in already advanced societies can struggle with a lack of integration of the Lower Stages. We definitely need more Pink

Well, it can, if I only see half of it from my POV, the other half is not being created at that moment. Maybe "stored" isn't the right word becouse it sounds too physical. But I mean, Conciousness must have the capacity of accessing/recalling/remembering previous experiences at any point, in order to sustain this consistency. I see how this could happen through pure magic without any means.

What mental gymnastics? Appearences are fearly similar. A baby can't think much and still can recognize appearences as his "mother" or his "toys" becouse they're fearly similar to previous ones. The number 2 in that context is not an appearence, but an abstraction. Very different.

@lmfao True, meditative awakenings tend to be more about "The Void". Besides Psychedelics, Magic and Energy Work are great for realising imagination!

Now that's an explaination. Thanks Leo

I don't feel the little perceptual field can be the whole of God's mind. Even in conventional dreams, our "individual mind" is creating the dream using memories and resources that are outside of the perception of dream character.