soos_mite_ah

https://www.puatraining.com/ I read a few of the articles on here (didn't read the product review or guide, some of them are super weird tbh). Most of the advice is good / obvious (ie. basic social skills), some of it is a off, and sometimes the advice they have, even if it is good it's phrased and articulated in a really weird way that can carry regressive undertones. I've actually gotten a lot of the same advice as a woman as well so it's not like the advice is only for men even though it is marketed as such. And in general dating I notice that the best way to differentiate between conscious and unconscious sources is to evaluate what the source thinks is a desirable man/woman (lets just say the ideal you want to be). Another way is to see how they define a quality guy/girl (who is the best to pursue). If both of those things seem reasonable go forth, if it seems mostly reasonable , go with a grain of salt, and if it seems regressive and toxic af, run. Normally when I would think about pick up and how it is manipulative I mainly think of the contents of this article. Before me really looking into it and the different types of pick up, this was my initial intro to pickup: https://www.bustle.com/p/7-pickup-artist-techniques-to-look-out-for-15897579

It's good that you are trying to see god's perspective. But in order to move into tier 2, you need to be able to differentiate between the absolute POV and the relative POV and understand which is applicable in a conversation. I know that evil technically doesn't exist in the nature of reality in the absolute perspective but in this thread and discussion, I'm not trying to discuss the absolute. I'm discussing the relative, specifically the relative female perspective on pick up vs the relative male perspective. I guess what I'm trying to say, lets not get too ahead of ourselves. Expecting society to fix itself can easily turn to stagnation. Yes on the collective, we are all going on a certain trajectory, but the collective is also made of individuals, and as individuals we can't simply stay idle, look at each other, and do nothing. Society will fix itself but we are still part of society and we need to do our part whether it is having difficult conversations, in acting policy, having a life purpose etc. It doesn't mean we have to riot and demonize. And in this case it is also looking at the limitations and the strengths of things such as pick up. You can literally say that about anything from an absolute perspective. Right now we are talking about the relative perspective. Be careful of false equivalencies.

I can see how learning how to date or attract someone in order to get your foot in the door does not equate to learning how to be in a healthy relationship. To me learning how to date also involves learning what you want and selecting a healthy partner wisely if that is what you wish to do. And in order to choose a healthy partner or to be appealing to a healthy partner, it's important to have your own house in order. Which is why sometimes doing things right else where in your life can help you be more successful in your dating life and vice versa. In order to do all that and get into a healthy relationship to where you are a good partner, you're going to need a lot of self awareness and sometimes a shit ton of therapy. Solving a confidence issue or social awkwardness is scratching the surface of developing yourself as a person when it comes to conscious relationships. Sometimes, people can go from being a socially awkward dumpster fire to a charismatic dumpster fire especially in the cases of red pill pick up. Which is why it's important to differentiate between curating a skill and actually growing as a person. Curating a skill can look like developing enough social skills to get laid but real growth involves changing your mindset, raising your consciousness, and evaluating your values.

Yeah I would also stress the importance of having close female friends purely on a platonic basis. A lot of my guy friends who typically understand women better are the ones that have female friends they aren't involved with. Then those guys take whatever they know about female nature intuitively they learned through those friendships and they can apply it to their dating life and as a result they are typically perceived better and know how to deal with women more. Personally, I see a guy who has some female friends that he isn't romantically or sexually involved with as a green flag because it tells me that women generally are comfortable around him and he can get along with women in general on a deeper level.

I really appreciate your insight and yeah this was my main goal into starting this thread. I was hoping to see what elements of my resistance comes up in my end and what comes up in other people's end in order to understand the situation better. I noticed myself getting triggered and at this point I feel like I'm in a less reactive place to lean into that discomfort and come out the other side with more understanding rather than frustration.

I watched this video as well as a few others by him. It seems like really reasonable advice. I have a couple disagreements here (but then again that is me with literally any self help type of video because I try to take things with a grain of salt) and there but the overall premise of the video appears very healthy. It also mirrors a lot of the other dating advice videos I have watched that were geared towards women which I find interesting because it tells me that the process of attraction has a lot more similarities between the sexes. I guess if I were to find this video on my own, I would be more likely to just label this as general dating advice rather than pick up (but perhaps that is because of my previous limited understanding of the range of pick up across different levels of consciousness). I guess my question is, what is the difference between regular dating advice and pick up if there is any?

I'm not trying to shame guys who get into pick up rather sometimes I do criticize pick up itself. Not to be cliche but it's the whole love the sinner hate the sin type of deal. But I feel that any critique to pick up can cause men to feel like they are being attacked because pick up can get tied to your identity like a lot of things. In this thread, I'm trying to understand pick up and present why it is I and many women get triggered by this type of content and language. I apologize if my long responses may look like I'm trying to fight but I honestly want to make sure I'm not missing anything in what I have to say and so that I can try to develop a more nuanced take on this apart from my initial *RED ALERT* response. I didn't plan on getting into my point of view in regards to my relationship with dating because I didn't want to stray from the topic, but here I find it necessary. While I can't fully empathize with what it's like to be a guy in this situation, I do know what it's like to be a woman with little experience with the opposite sex. I also see some parallels which I do find interesting and applicable to this discussion. As a woman who didn't get any attention from guys (other than the sketchy kind I talked about in my original post), I did wanted to get better at dating and understanding how to maneuver these types of situations. I wanted a sense of normalcy because in my mind as someone who was then 18, never had a boyfriend, never kissed a guy, and sure as hell haven't had anything remotely sexual happen to me, I felt as if I was being left behind from my peers. I was afraid that these experiences made me less mature and socially inept. But most of all, I doubted my own sense of desirability and at times I did fall into a victim narrative where I thought things along the lines of "men are sociopathic assholes who just want to fuck and move on with their lives, they could never care about me" "no good guys exist/ good guys are extremely rare" "I'm not attractive to men nor am I relationship material" and "there is something inherently wrong with me." Plus, being seen as beautiful and worthy of a relationship, being pursued in a romantic sense, and having a relationship are very tied with femininity and often toxically so. I know a lot of women who base their self worth on whether or not they are in a relationship because society has taught us that this is what is the most important thing to have as a woman. Forget being smart, forget your success, the fact that you don't have a man means you are a failure and you are unlovable in some way. You are fucked up if you are single. I would imagine that as a man in a similar situation, you do feel abnormal and left behind for not having those experiences. And while it isn't the same as my situation, I can see how having a lot of sexual experience is very tied with masculinity therefore not being good with girls can feel very, not necessarily feminine, but rather emasculating. I can imagine wanting to scapegoat you're lack of experience to other areas of your life that you might feel insecure about whether that be you socioeconomic status, your looks, your introverted personality etc. I can imagine feeling like you are doing everything right in terms of being nice and still not getting anywhere therefore you build up this victim narrative of "women are sociopathic assholes who want money and materialistic things and move on with their lives, they could never care about me" or "there is something inherently wrong with me" Plus, sexual experience is very tied with masculinity because we expect men to be horny all the time and constantly be out looking for sex. That can be pretty toxic. Especially with being a virgin, in some ways I can see it being worse for guys because there is no archetype of masculinity (at least from what I can think of) that is inclusive to guys who lack experience. In other words, you are fucked up if you are single. For both genders, society puts a lot of emphasis on being in a relationship or having sexual experience, and it isn't healthy for either gender. I've had people who when they find out that I'm a virgin or that I haven't had a boyfriend ever, they are shocked. They are always like "but you're so funny and smart etc. how can a good person like you can be single?" It's this notion that if you are single there is something wrong with you. But I have met both men and women who are perfectly normal healthy individuals who just didn't have much experience in dating for whatever reason. And when you hear that type of thing over and over again, it can be difficult to not internalize and wonder wtf is wrong with you. Like I feel like people who lack experience sometimes can fall into the trap of assuming they have virgin branded across their forehead and then begin to define themselves as such because they develop this limiting belief even though in reality most people can't tell or straight up don't care that much. I can go into the parallels between getting sucked into toxic mindset from what I have observed, but I'll pause right here so people can take a moment to read and respond. Plus I have shit to do and I'm tired of typing.

Fair enough. That is a very common media phenomenon. The loudest and the most obnoxious cases are the ones that get publicity and as a result there is this false sense of reality people can get into. But by no means do they represent an everyday scenario

@mmKay Thank you so much for linking that video. I was just about to ask for some sources. I'll be sure to binge later on A lot of damage in society comes from a place of pain from the collective. While I can empathize with the pain, I cannot excuse the consequences. Reasons=/= Excuses. We are all broken in some shape or way but we don't all end up like this. I like on how you explained the red pill aspect of all of this because that is often what I see reflected in a lot of pick up language and concepts. That's why I get concern when I see things regarding pick up. I'm beginning to understand it a little more. But I would disagree with women creating the red pill cult. Red pill is a phenomenon that is very rooted in the patriarchy. The reason why a lot of men don't understand women and find dating difficult is because (this is probably scratching the surface tbh) Men aren't compelled to learn about social cues and emotional sensitivity as much as women: For women, we get taught this often to an extreme where we are told to take everyone else's emotional state to consideration but our own. Men are often compelled to repress emotions from society from a very young age: When people are cut off from their own emotions, often times we get cut off from other people's emotions and again out ability to empathize. Because of my upbringing, I do have experience in this. The female perspective isn't as vocal nor does it have much of a platform in society compared to the male perspective: We live in a man's world and often times we accept that as the norm rather than trying to understand anything else that can deviate from it. This part screams !!!! YIKES !!!! I have met charismatic guys who have good social skills resort to manipulative and sometimes very dangerous shit. I think there is this image in society that a man who rapes a woman is like this social awkward hermit lurking in an alley way. That is not the case by far. It could literally be anyone. The common denominator is a desire to exert power. You cannot blame women for this. It reeks of victim blaming and is part of men not wanting to take responsibility for their actions. I know in a later comment you said that you aren't blaming women, I would look into that thought a little more closely. You can't equate theft with rape. I can think of a good reason to steal things, or hell kill someone (like out of self defense for example) but I can't think of a good reason to rape someone regardless of gender. Another thing that I forgot to mention is that yes we all have a survival agenda when it comes to dating, but they are not all equal. Be very careful of false equivalencies. A guy feeling insecure about not being able to get laid and a woman being in fear for her life because disrespecting women is so normalized is not the same thing To an extent I agree with this. But I think it's important to define what I mean by empathize and accept. Just because you understand where someone is coming from doesn't mean that you are ok with it or you agree with it. Sometimes accepting something isn't about agreement rather it is about acknowledgement. For instance, in order to deal with the causes of violent crime, you can't demonize criminals and create a war against them, rather you have to empathize and understand the systems at play to create this behavior whether they are social or infrastructural. As for accepting and not agreeing, an example I can think of is the way left leaning people are more accepting towards America's racist past. While they don't like it and actively fight against the institutions it brought, they are willing to talk about it and not erase that history while conservatives want to repress it and see America as this happy land of the free to feed into their egos because it hurts them too much to recognize their own racist ideology because it conflicts with their image of America and therefore their identities. What I'm trying to say is that you can be vehemently against manipulation and enabling abusers and still come from empathy and acceptance. There is a huge, yet nuanced difference between acceptance= being ok with something while acceptance = acknowledging the situation at hand. I agree with you Preety because it is so easy to feel like you can accept this reality when you aren't on the receiving end of it when it comes to accepting in regards to being ok/ at peace with it. Women aren't more emotional because that's just how women are. Women are more emotional because a lot of things that are done to us exists in a much larger social context and somethings don't ping at men the same way it pings at us because men don't have the same type of collective trauma. Also I 100% agree with differentiating between pick up and conscious dating. Pick up can be a loaded term that lacks nuance. From what I understand, pick up can range from how to develop social skills so you aren't scared shitless around women all the way to red pill. To me there is too much of a range for everything to be lumped into one category. 100% agree with this. I know for me, learning how to flirt and be more open with guys has helped me develop as a person in numerous ways through many areas of life. I won't get into my story because I don't want to stray from the point but I can see the same being true with men. Along with the red pill stuff I do know that there are a lot of pick up people who ended up in jail because of rape and/ or sexual harassments. When I saw those things, I will say that I wasn't surprised considering the themes I have delved into in my original post.

Yeah I saw that comment and I thought it was pretty insightful. And I agree with the proper male initiations thing as well. I think I remember seeing a vaush video where he talks about how now a days the proper way of being masculine is muddied by notions of the past that are possibly regressive and an unknown future that we are moving towards and how in order to have a healthy expression of masculinity, men also need to be comfortable with femininity. He also talked about different archetypes of masculinity and how the vast majority doesn't integrated the feminine. If I find that video I'll put it in this thread. Yeah those types of experiences can give a woman a different point of view when it comes to the themes in pick up more so than pick up itself. Like I said this scratches the surface. I have friends who have encountered much worse. From what I understand, pick up if it is done right and consciously, is going to look pretty natural and charismatic, not sketchy and manipulative like @RendHeaven mentioned. It can be a way of gaining confidence and increasing one's social skills. As for the thicker skin comment, women have been taught to suck it up and brush this stuff off as "boys will be boys" and often times we are blamed for these situations instead of holding men accountable. I know we have a long way to go and this type of thing will stick around for god knows how long. Pretty sure my grandkids would have to deal with this. It seems like trauma to yall, and it is don't get me wrong, but a lot of this has also been normalized as part of the female experience, which I think is dangerous. I think that phrase is a good way of describing self bias and self agenda. To a woman, it's more about the themes that it draws parallel to (predator vs prey, being dominated in a social setting, manipulation etc.). Again, I'm not trying to disagree, I'm just trying to explain our perception is coming from and what is shaping it. I guess the other thing with women is that the decent guys don't approach as often and it usually the loudest, most obnoxious individuals that end up getting the attention so we get this false sense of scarcity. Because if a guy never approaches me, I'm never going to know if it's because he is anxious or simply not interested. Instead it's the bold ones usually the creeps or fuck boys that approach and sometimes they do it in cringy or low conscious ways. I have tried to raise the point of leading with empathy instead of blatant sexual intent in other threads numerous times. You can be empathetic and direct when approaching a girl and not be overtly sexual to where she gets uncomfortable. She will still get the message that you are interested in her. A lot of the times when I say this, I get told by guys "oh you're just saying that because you're self biased, this is how guys get friendzoned." Because of that, sometimes I get this image of pick up being devoid of empathy. But if what you are saying about pick up being about social awareness, I'm for it even if in the intial stages of learning social skills is a little awkward. I'm willing to look into this subject tbh. I mean you won't really know if it's selfish intent or empathy until you spend some time getting to know a guy. But when it comes to approaching, often times women can get a general impression. I guess what I mean by my examples is blatantly selfish and lacking social tact, so maybe that's where the miscommunication lies. Telling a woman you think she is attractive is much more empathetic than catcalling her for example. That's what I was talking about.

Also note: I'm not going to be replying to many comments. I have said what I said and I expanded on it pretty extensively. Plus I want to be all ears regarding this topic and the reactions it might cause.

@Khr @Preety_India @Emerald This might be a tangent but I have seen the term slut be used in two ways. The most commonly used one is where a woman liking sex and having a lot of sex is referred to as a derogatory term used to undermine female sexuality. The other way is where a woman doesn't have many standards and doesn't have the healthiest reasons for having a lot of sex (I've seen slut be used in this way a few times here and there but not too often). There seems to be a overlap because there is a common misconception where if you have a lot of sexual partners, then you either don't value yourself highly or you don't have standards. But in a lot of cases, having standards or a lack there of and having a lots of sexual partners vs having a few, are two separate traits. For example, lets say you have a woman who has a few partners, lets say 2 and she slept with them because she wanted to prove something to herself or she didn't want to express her own boundaries. To the person who uses the second definition of a slut where a slut refers to a lack of standards and a lack of healthy reasons for having sex, this woman is a slut. To the person who uses the first definition of a slut, this example isn't an example of a slut. Another example is a woman who sleeps around a lot but she is doing it for healthy reasons like lets say she wants to explore her sexuality more. This woman isn't coming from a place of trauma, sleeping around is actually the right decision for her and her self discovery. To the people who use the first definition of a slut, this woman is a slut but if you use the second definition, this person isn't a slut because her desire to engage in this type of behavior is coming from an authentic source. Sometimes I see this type of miscommunication where one party is using one definition of slut and the other party is using the other. And the best way I deal with it is by not having slut as a part of my vocabulary (mainly because it can be seen as derogatory in many cases) because it can lead to miscommunication. To me, a woman's (or really any person's respect for themselves) respect for herself is not reflected in where her boundaries lie and what she is ok with but rather her ability to enforce her boundaries and stand up for herself regardless of where she stands. Every person's expression of authenticity is different and different things can be healthy and empowering to different people so you can't say any hard and fast rules about what should and shouldn't be ok or where boundaries need to lie. But it is up to an individual to respect their own authenticity and stand up for themselves if they personally feel that their boundary might be crossed. I hope that makes sense and I would like to know what yall think.

Like what @Preety_India said, this is about standards not whether or not a woman is ok with a casual relationship. I watched this video and I would say it's over all really good advice for men. As someone with standards, while I'm not looking for a casual relationship at the moment, if I were to be seeking something casual, I would want a guy to be up front with me on his intentions. I wouldn't want him to be manipulative and dishonest with me, promise me something he has no intentions with following up on, and then leave me as soon as he is done fucking me. If you want to have a casual relationship with a woman, being up front will help you a lot because honesty will build trust and even in casual situation, a woman needs a certain degree of trust to want to have sex. There is nothing wrong with women who want a casual relationship or want to sleep around. But even those women, if they are quality women who have standards (or hell a woman with common sense and a desire for personal safety), aren't going to put up with creepy behavior which include but not limited to feeling pressurized or manipulated by men into something they aren't comfortable with. I know they say don't stick your dick into crazy and honestly that applies for women as well. Don't let crazy stick their dick in you. If you're going to do pick up, make sure it is a higher quality of pick up that doesn't disrespect women and their agenda and most importantly their boundaries.

I agree with this a lot but I would also like to add some things to it as well. There isn't anything wrong with sleeping around as a woman if that's what she chooses to do. She isn't loose, a club slut, or any less dignified or low quality because of that. Context matters a lot and even women who don't typically sleep around might be more in the mood to have a one night stand or two if she was at a club. Even then, if a woman sleeps around a lot, most of the time she still has standards in regards to how she is treated and approached and she still is looking for some type of emotional connection even if it is for a short term basis like a hook up or a friends with benefits. But yeah, I feel like PUAs often have a caricature of women in their minds that is far from what an actual woman is like. That I still stand by.

I agree with this. Plus I want to add that there are reasons why a woman would want to wait that doesn't have to do with being religious, being conservative, having limiting beliefs, or any demonization of sex. Some want to have a clear mind by keeping sex off the table when it comes to dating and don't want to muddy her judgement of a guy's character. Some know that they are the type of people who gets emotionally attached to a guy when they have sex so they put that off until they enter a committed relationship so they can save themselves heart ache and save the guy drama from dealing with a girl who got attached too quickly. And some women need a good deal of trust in a guy before fully revealing themselves to him because it can be hella daunting to be butt ass naked with a guy. I wouldn't be surprised if age is a factor. I'm speaking as a 21 year old (lets be real there is some bias on my part and I can recognize that) and I know a lot of women at my age who don't have much experience with dating and sex. As a result, they don't want to sleep with a guy too early and they want to feel things out before jumping into something too fast. In those situations, some girls aren't comfortable with going from 0-100 that fast and it's ok. Again, every woman will very. Some women aren't like what I'm talking about at all and some are. To each their own. And if a girl that waits that long is a deal breaker because sexual compatibility and experience is that important to you in a relationship, that's perfectly ok too. I'm just saying that there are a lot of women who might not be comfortable with how fast guys want them to have sex with them and it's a very real concern that a lot of women have.

1/17/2021 Food Diary Breakfast: 1 apple with some peanut butter: I REAALLY didn't want to have breakfast today. I was so tempted to skip. In these last few days I have been eating what I personally consider a lot of food so I felt stuffed from the moment I woke up. I have been having heavier breakfasts lately but I thought that maybe I need to have something light just to ease into everything. I was going to just have an apple but I went ahead and added the peanut butter just to get some fats and proteins in. Half a lemon and some water: Was in the mood for refreshing cold lemon water. Lunch: Homemade spaghetti with mushrooms: Since I'm still trying to get in my carbs, I opted for some spaghetti. I used these green spaghetti noodles that are made of green lentils, spinach flour, kale flour, and cauliflower flour. When I was grocery shopping these seemed interesting and I thought I give it a shot. They are pretty good, taste just like regular noodles really. They also have more protein compared to the regular gluten free noodles. I also added in some onion, baked tomatoes, garlic, parsley, bell peppers, and mushrooms along with some tomato sauce. I made my meal more vegetable heavy so I wouldn't have to deal with the tiredness I had to deal with yesterday when I ate the cereal. Dairy free mint ice cream: Saw some at the store and thought I could try some. It was pretty satisfying. First time I had ice cream in a while. I don't really get ice cream cravings anymore but I can still enjoy it. Snack: A handful of cashews: I wanted to eat some peanuts but I saw that my mom bought some cashews so I had some of that instead because why not. Dinner: Zucchini noodles: Just my regular zucchini noodles. I feel like I have been trying to get in more carbs and as a result I haven't been eating as many zucchini noodles. I actually enjoy eating zucchini noodles. It isn't just something I made myself eat because I thought I had to really cut down on carbs. Sure that was the reason why I discovered the zucchini noodles but I also grew to love them. They will still be a part of my diet. hard boiled egg: wanted to make sure I get in a little bit of protein for my dinner to ensure that I stay full. Additional note: I didn't feel tired today and I didn't have an urge to doze off. I think it does have to do with simple and complex carbs (simple carbs being breads, noodles and cereals and complex carbs being fruits and vegetables). I don't think I work well with simple carbs alone as a meal because then I get energy in the moment since the body doesn't have to process it much to get the glucose into the blood stream, but then the energy quickly wears off. With complex carbs, the energy release is slower meaning you won't have a blood sugar spike and the energy will be released slowly but surely in a certain duration of time. Or at least that's what I understood. I think I can have simple carbs but I need it to accompany a good amount of complex carbs such as vegetables to balance things out. Either that or mainly vegetables will do. Also I was expecting to break out from yesterday's cereal since it wasn't gluten free. That didn't happen! In fact, my skin has been clearer in the last few days. I think my lack of calories and my restriction was making my PCOS symptoms worse and was making me more sensitive to gluten and dairy in regards to the reactions in my body. I'm still going to avoid gluten and dairy when I can but I am going to be sure that I eat enough since that seems to be a huge factor in dealing with my condition. Speaking of eating enough, I know the amount of food I have been eating has been heavier than what I'm used to but I still struggle to get in a full 1800-2000 calories each day. I'm going to try to work up to that. Because the amount of food I have been eating has been feeling more than what I'm used to, I think it will take me a while to get used to that amount before moving on to increasing food intake in even more. That means I'm not going to be eating 1500-1700 calories every single day (that's usually how many calories my heavier days of eating consist of). Instead I'm going to have that amount for a few days, take a break where I eat what I consider a regular amount of food (usually totaling up to1000-1200 calories), and then get back to eating about 1500-1700 calories again. I'm going to be taking this slow enough to let myself adjust.

what if the woman in question isnt looking to have sex before getting into a relationship?

I feel like unconscious pick up mainly works on women who are dumb, really naive, or are simply looking for NSA sex. There is a reason why most women don't respond to it and have an auto reject response.

I mean it was an exaggeration but I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that a lot of pick up prioritize racking up bodies rather than connecting to women and taking some time to get to know a woman. When you walk into a situation with the mentality of trying to get sex, women often shut down automatically because we are used to being approached in that way. Instead you need to be assertive and approach a woman with empathy and consideration first and foremost instead of immediately start thinking of getting to bed with her. I wouldn't be surprised it that is a lot of the reason why guys put girls they find attractive on a pedestal because they are so fixated on what they see as this unattainable sexual aspect of the situation instead of trying to get to know this girl like a normal person.

Bruh at least take a girl on a couple dates and try to build some type of a relationship before going straight to having sex. Hell for a lot of women, they want to be in a relationship first before even thinking about doing anything sexual. Men are like microwaves. They can heat up instantly. Women are like crock pots, it takes us some time. There isn't anything wrong with one night stands or sleeping with someone on the first date, but i guess my thing is have some patience. This isn't how a lot of scenarios work out. Often times you need to have some time for some type of emotional rapport to build with a woman. That doesn't mean you HAVE TO get into a committed relationship before having sex, but I guess I'm afraid of this type of message being taken to the extreme. That's my whole thing with pick up. The messages there can easily be taken to the extreme if it isn't in the right context (at least from what I see) and that is especially the case with guys who spend all of their time behind a computer screen with little to no social skills period, forget about talking to the opposite sex. A lot of those guys don't know how to see nuances, because again, lack of social intelligence/ experience and that can get a lot of those people into trouble. And those extremes can easily paint women and female sexuality as a whole as some type of a caricature instead of viewing women as human with their own individual needs. I have talked to my friends about what we want in guys and almost after every conversation, regardless of what each of our individual preferences are, we realize that our bars are on the floor because ultimately we want a guy who will treat us with basic human respect (whether it is in a relationship or a hook up) so that we can trust the guy and feel safe. Go ahead, do whatever you want to attract women idk, just keep malicious intent out of it and view women as human instead of a body to add to your count. Ethical pick up if you will is necessary. And part of it is being careful of how things are phrased and not painting large groups of people with broad strokes. Seeing nuances and avoiding stereotypes is the best way to build any amount of social intelligence.

I mean you could lean into certain aspect of your in born masculinity or femininity. Lets say you are 60% masculine and 40% feminine. The way I see it, you could learn to embrace that 60% masculine, develop that masculinity and learn to lead with it. You could do the same with that 40% feminine aspect as well. But leaning into one aspect or developing one aspect doesn't change the composition of one's polarities. If anything, only focusing on one polarity and ignoring the other is a sure way to create a ton of shadows and contradictions in yourself because you aren't being authentic.

Also another thing I would tell my younger self is not to be self conscious about having boundaries and having standards. Sure having boundaries and standards will scare a lot of guys away and many won't be attracted to you but it will be a good way to weed out low quality guys from high quality guys. Fuck boys want instant gratification, literally they want to go in and out. If you have some standards, boundaries, hobbies, and interests, they will stay the hell away from you, not because you aren't desirable but because you aren't easy to manipulate, you aren't desperate for a man because you have your own life, and because you hold him to a higher standard of how he should treat you. That's not a bad thing, in fact it's really good because you'll get quality > quantity. You might not get a lot of approaches or a lot of attention but in the long term it will save you a lot of headache and fuckery. Growing up I had guys literally walk away from me once they realized that I was smart. When I was younger, I was self conscious of it even though I knew that what they were doing was messed up and misogynistic. I still encounter situations now where I tell a guy what I'm majoring in and I can see him getting freaked out a little but I don't feel bad about it at all. Now it's like the process of elimination. I would tell my younger self not to compare looks because the vast majority of people don't care, men or women. I would tell her that there are numerous different forms of beauty and there isn't one mold. Who someone thinks is beautiful can range from person to person and from society to society. Embrace the beauty and the desirability that you already have and it will flow from you even more because of the extra confidence. Flowers are beautiful and so are Christmas lights and they look nothing a like. And even if some people or society prefer the flowers, that doesn't mean the Christmas lights are any less beautiful. The presence of one woman's beauty and femininity is not an absence of your own even if your form of beauty and femininity vastly differs from her. And sometimes that preference that is pushed by society can be due to racism and a plethora of other issues. It isn't anything that's on you. I'm mainly speaking about this as a woman of color who was ridiculed for her features because of the Eurocentric standard of beauty. I remember when I was around 13 years old, a guy I liked told me to my face that he "didn't date brown girls." I remember back then how painful that was. I had another situation with a different guy play out like this a year ago and I had this attitude of "damn I dodged a bullet, I wouldn't want to date a guy like that in the first place" and there was no pain involved in my end. Some annoyance maybe but I didn't cry myself to sleep like the last time. In other words I would tell her to not doubt her own desirability and that it's ok to be patient instead of rushing into something with someone who might not be good for you. And to me, part of femininity is understanding your own desirability and taking care of yourself mentally, physically, and emotionally.

I mean to a lot of guys on this forum, I would say this is true and a lot of pick up from what I understand does try to make one build these things. But often times pick up can be limited in the way that it is often practiced and it can go wrong in so many different ways. It's really all about how you go about developing and expressing these qualities and there is a wide range of ways to do so ranging from healthy and constructive to totally manipulative to the point where you look like the romantic equivalent of a used car sales man. That's what you have to be careful of. Sure you aren't going to get with every girl you talk to and have a 100% success rate (and that's fine it isn't anything on you) but if you have to approach 50-100 different women, maybe it would be a good idea to see where you can improve so that it's more efficient and so you aren't wasting your time.

Divorce rates were lower back then because women couldn't support themselves financially since many firms regardless of industry didn't hire women and because many women couldn't even open a bank account much less get a credit card by themselves unless it was with their. You also didn't have an equal opportunity at higher education. All of these meant that if something happened and you got divorced, you wouldn't be able to live your life and support yourself. If the man did something she didn't like, her choices were to speak up, get on his bad side, and potentially end up getting beaten up or kicked to the streets, or she could stay quiet and submissive and keep her seething rage to herself. Now that women have more economic rights, she doesn't have to stay in an unhealthy situation if she doesn't wish to which is why divorce rates began to rise after more and more women entered the work force. You talk about how a couple's relationship dynamics and the way women are treated in the workforce are two separate things but both of them reflect attitudes and treatment of women as a whole and there is a lot of intersection between these two domains. A woman's submission in a relationship back then wasn't out of respect for men, it was out of fear. It wasn't out of attraction and out of something she genuinely liked, it was out of survival.