Origins

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  1. Posted · Edited by Origins

    Transcendent Empathy - addendum to above post:

    Physical Prisons:

    Visiting every prison on planet Earth, as many as I'm aware of. All the prisoners, I can see them in my minds eye. Every single prisoner in solitary confinement, every single prisoner experiencing violence/suffering, every single prisoner forced to do drugs, deal drugs and steal drugs, along with changing the word "drugs" to any other seemingly unavoidable error in judgement like weapons and various other forms of contraband. 

    Mental Prisons:

    All over the planet going to every single psychiatric institution, every psychologists office presently working, every form of negative group dynamics that compromise the sanity of individuals to every single lonely, ostracised and or just internally suffering person on the planet. 

    Go to every human experiencing sadness, every human repressing their emotions, every human dissociating from their body, every human experiencing anger, every human experiencing literally any negative state of being.

    There are likely at least a billion people at any one time in the second category and there are over 10.3 million people across the planet presently incarcerated (the first category).

    How can they be helped? How do they help each other? What solutions did they come up with?

    What solutions can you come up with with the suffering's that they go through that you can somehow share in your local or internet space or even apply to your own life?

     

    By reading the previous post you'll understand what I'm doing here.

  3. Posted · Edited by Origins

    @Blackhawk Share your worst. C'mon, you posted now you gotta share and I gotta see where I can take this! It's okay, only what you're comfortable with haha.

    Here's something I shared just recently, feel free to checkout at your leisure otherwise feel free to do whatever you wish first I'll roll with the punches.

    https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/63537-childhood-traumas/?do=findComment&comment=871590

    And as it serves your curiosity something I do nearly every day that's helped in a unique way independent of emotional intelligence (above link) mastery. Otherwise feel free to ask questions about anything I mention of course:

    Heal Yourself with The Ice Shaman | Wim Hof & Russell Brand
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPlicAEFec


    Wim Hof Guided Breathing (3 Rounds) BEGINNERS ⏱ With Onscreen Timer
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sHe2RMnMA8

  4. Posted

    @ROOBIO Hey mate, just shared this process I created here feel free to ask questions about it.

     

    And as it serves your curiosity something I do nearly every day that's helped in a unique way independent of emotional intelligence mastery:

    Heal Yourself with The Ice Shaman | Wim Hof & Russell Brand
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPlicAEFec


    Wim Hof Guided Breathing (3 Rounds) BEGINNERS ⏱ With Onscreen Timer
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sHe2RMnMA8

  6. Posted · Edited by Origins

    @HERO_ Feedback loop I designed just for you (updated with steps 13, 14 and 15):

    1. close your eyes

    2. sink into your body

    3. feel your emotions

    4. label your emotions while staying contact with your body --- you mentioned failure, target that first then work down the list of "negative" emotions

    5. recall a memory that links to that emotion (may just end up being association/s)

    6. remember to keep your eyes closed and stay in any of those associations that come up

    7. ask yourself, what is behind the feeling that I'm experiencing relating to this association

    8. any other emotions, prepare yourself, experience them fully, the body is learning to understand these new commands you're providing it in doing so, its learning how to bring up emotions as you ask it to in response to your associational mind-body memory

    9. focus on your breath for a few moments away from other associations and emotions while not blocking them out either

    10. shift to the emotion of compassion on the experience you're going through, do this for 30 seconds as a practice run, as you get better and better at cycling through these steps, learn to transition between this state and love so that you learn to transmute that state to the level you've automatically learned to do, that you've developed a natural instinct for anticipating the amount of time you personally need to devote

    11. notice any changes you're experiencing and now here's the step where I'd advise that you start a journal to help you encode the experiences you've had in this practice so you can recall the benefit of doing it, in doing, increase the likelihood of continue to do it

    12. in this journal I want you to repeat the above exercise with/without the noted transitions but in doing so, I want you to mind map those associations in a more regimented manner, going back to the earlier question of asking yourself "what emotion is behind this emotion", taking that to the next set of associations and the emotions that are behind there

    • In the beginning it'll be difficult to perform these steps but as you improve your proficiency your mastery over your emotional intelligence will become second to none. 

     

    Go through the same process with your:

    - feelings of shame

    - family dependency or dependency in general, work through any feelings associated with the idea of independence 

     

    13. have trust in your intuitive intelligence to notice patterns you performed in step 12 and then translate those insights into actions you can take right now to begin repatterning those associations, for example as it concerns any associations relating to dependency, do the opposite of withdrawal that may have arisen when you say perhaps wanted to shy away at an independent move. The same can be done with shame, by focusing on say pride and performing a corresponding action that produces said pride you can train your relationship to pride and better transition naturally away from feelings of shame

    14. before bed read your journal which would include your experiences in step 13 and remind yourself in the morning of those insights

     

    15. remind yourself throughout the day of these insights you've uncovered, this will trigger dopamine (makes you feel good) and a positive progress feedback loop for yourself

  7. Posted · Edited by Origins

    Be prepared for nuanced questions back and fourth so we I'm able to work through it with you relative to how you personally experience it more than how I'm merely guessing, depth of course all depending on the circumstance.

    best.

     

    ————- remember to always quote my name so it’s easier for me to see a notification etc

     

     

  8. Posted · Edited by Origins

    @rd5555 If you sit quietly in your mind and imagine their presence when they're not there, what kind of experiences come to mind? What is the experience of sitting with them like in pure observation? This is particularly important as it concerns discerning the nature of the actual anxiety and the reasons it comes up.

    Outside of the anxiety, what are other problems you experience with the wider friendship group?\

    May as well share this while I'm at it just shared, may serve (not necessarily relating to childhood traumas of course though perhaps, just in relation to your anxiety:

     

  9. Posted · Edited by Origins

    Transcendental Empathy (core tenet of communication)
    =======================

    The following requires a lot of psychological development as well as being a unique portal into consciousnesses further development into more than just less than obvious ways.

     

    Traveling the Earth

    Into the blue

    Into the yellow

    And all things mellow

    And all things dark

    Light a spark

    That’s the art

    Of empathy

    Transcendental communication across the planet

    Communicating with beings all around the world

    Through imagination alone is it

    Perhaps

    But why is that not just the beginning of the enquiry into the nature of that reality

    To journey across the lands

    Gain wisdom that I could never experience first hand

    Beyond consciousnesses middle-band

    Exploring the heights, the skies, the heavens and the hells

    What is this concrete formulation in any moment?

    This moment of discovery rediscovers its unencapsulated mystery

    Geometry that has more bends than we can comprehend

    To speak to the angry

    To speak to the elated

    In doing so,

    Learning to communicate and adore all

    As I simulate,

    I create

    Multiplicities

    That force the emergence of reshaping pictures

    That encapsulate the sound of the previously non-transmissible

    The chaotically untraceable, and destructive

    Into a peaceful melody

    That you can hear outside of prejudice

    And instead with the ears of understanding, like God’s

    Take me to New York and listen to the footsteps of thoughts at Times Square 

    Or to observe the curious eye gazing under the Eiffel tower

    Or take me to a funeral to experience the myriad of experiences of the people paying their respects (and sometimes other)

    Or to the end of a grand final football match to experience both the jubilation and the sorrow of thousands of fans

    The destiny of life finds itself in these moments that live in the gaps of experience that make up the observation of human beings 

    How they have resolved within themselves

    To comprehend and experience the life they live

    Through their perceptions, their painted curiosities, tainted sorrows, pure intentions and not so

    This is the journey of mind

    Via empathy and imagination

    The capacity to travel the globe, and even into the realms of beings from outer space

    To listen to how they communicate, feel the depth of their understandings in their reactions to the life they experience in their subtleties and unexpected pondering's 

    Take the elevator in your mind to the heights and deepest levels

    To the highest, you experience the greatest depths of existence including the capacity to communicate with any being anywhere in the universe and through that experience transcendental empathy

    To the lowest, you will experience the greatest depths of self, including the capacity to communicate with aspects of yourself in alternate realities, past lives and “dream selves”

    And everywhere in between to prepare, experience and teach the self anything you wish to teach it (fly a plane, enter into a war at any time in history, etc) as well as travel to any time in history across the universe, including any future time

    This is transcendental empathy, excellence in imagination and an ingenious portal to wisdom, insight and transformation

    The mirror of consciousness that reflects back to you your capacity to walk through life with ease, joy, love, truth and of course, the chaotic pursuit into the unknown for transcendent evolution of the self

    ====================

    okay here we go better presentation 

    I'm sure plenty of people can resonate with this

    (an unlisted improvisation for A list exclusivity ----- haven't sang or "guitared" for a few days")

  10. Posted · Edited by Origins

    ideas for "stuck in self awareness" (number 3 above)

    ------ voice all shaky etc because I didn't do any warmups and sang excessively that day plus its a sleep deprivation experiment haha

    some of them are horrible but that's a part of the fun of it, give it a go

    (message me if you need help with creativity)

     

     

     

    (early days of learning the piano --- hence why I'm putting in at least 5 hours a day every day)

  11. Posted

    @neutralempty Give an example. As it pertains to connection, that's because I write like this (see below), comparably. It enables me to fit more into a sentence. Whether people understand is up to their capacities, I'm not in the business of being people's school teacher nor am I here to make friends here with people who don't as you put it, fluidly understand (to replace read). I seek like minds in this lifetime, there's too many ingredients in the social salad bowl of life, would cut 99.99% out with the rest of the villager ancestors that have already passed.

    Buffalo is to cow as …. is to pig

    Goat

    Boar 

    Mule

    Hare 

    I don't care to explain this example. If you understand it you understand it, if you don't, move along please. Abruptness is my style.

  12. Posted

    @neutralempty My writing is perfectly coherent outside of your ability to provide accurate feedback there, of which you've added none. I'll have a think about it and won't get back to you (feel free to ponder it for yourself though - its explorative at this stage). Whether psychopaths are violent depends on the psychopath, this is where environment comes into account. Convicted psychopaths are more likely to have had an upbringing that fostered said reality compared to psychopaths that didn't, other than say, being less intelligent than psychopaths that didn't get caught. 

  14. Posted · Edited by Origins

    There's so many now right. Can't not do this ;) .

     

    (feel free to use any of my ideas at your leisure, literally doesn't phase me, create a book from them make profit doesn't bother me, send me the book you created not the royalties to see if I can add anything there to my own personal insights / or even better just PM me to develop concepts further).

     

    Title: What is Transcendent Communication? Spectrum: Openness: Depth: Connection
    https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/63834-what-is-transcendent-communication-spectrum-openness-depth-connection/

     

    Title: Transcendent Relationships: Understanding
    https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/63832-transcendent-relationships-understanding/#comment-871024

     

    Title: Existential Transcendence (Important Questions)
    https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/63753-existential-transcendence-important-questions/

     

    Title; Existential Transcendence (its poetic analogue)
    https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/63739-existential-transcendence-its-poetic-analogue/#comment-870934

     

    Title: Remembering the Ordinary: Who was I before Transcendence?
    https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/63838-remembering-the-ordinary-who-was-i-before-transcendence/
     

    Title: Transcendent Humour
    https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/63839-transcendent-humour/#comment-871135

     

    Title: Transcendence: Album (finally resolved on the pattern I want to produce)
    https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/63836-transcendence-album-finally-resolved-on-the-pattern-i-want-to-produce/

     

    Title: Transcendence: Notes, Areas, Goals (so yeah: miscellaneous all covered)
    https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/63841-transcendence-notes-areas-goals-so-yeah-miscellaneous-all-covered/#comment-871133

     

    Title: Transcendent Production: Creative Feedback Loops (handling the experiential)
    https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/63843-transcendent-production-creative-feedback-loops-handling-the-experiential/

     

     

    OLD: https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/60412-list-of-highlighted-journals/#comment-821426

     

     

  15. Posted · Edited by Origins

    And yet another journal for Transcendence (probably more to come ;)  ).

    So, using the following outdated journal (that's just the category I'm putting it in for now) for creative inspiration:

    Title: Principles of Life - This is dogma, drink my coolaid or skirt away into nonsense
    https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/60414-principles-of-life-this-is-dogma-drink-my-coolaid-or-skirt-away-into-nonsense/?do=findComment&comment=821492

    (Just for the record I no longer really believe in "principles of life" that just seems to be a lower point of resolution to all this)

    This is where you get physical with physical existence, where you master the highest possible creative flow within this life experience. And not just action sweet pee, you want to do it in thought, emotion and any of their relatives as well, this is where you conceptually paint the geometry of creative flow in the context of creative production and live through those feedback loops generated in action. It sounds "robotic" but in the action its not, that's your visible flow like any professional athlete, master at their craft would experience through their own flow, you're just doing it via all of life bitches.

    Read the book (here's a review): Flow - The Psychology of Optimal Experience

    https://www.meaningfulhq.com/flow.html#:~:text= book summary - flow 1 Flow,a pathway to greater meaning%2C happiness%2C... More
     

     

     

  17. Posted · Edited by Origins

    Following from Transcendence poetry journal just coz it an't poetry but useful to go somewhere, its like trash you just don't want to get rid of because its time stamp is creatively useful, like that time you dry humped a dryer when you were trashed while getting a blowjob by a woman that was playing the role of hooker

     

     


     

    This brain of mine, I care not for you

    For as much you give to my experience, you take away from another’s

    Someone I care about and love

    So to you I transcend as well

    I will work tirelessly

    I realise now, that as you are against them in their experience (because brains are analogous of course)

    You must be by analogy not for nor against my own, so I will just turn against you in advance

    Every crack, every flaw you have, I will see through and work to transcend

    This is the last straw

    Every need you have (brain) I don’t give a fuck, I will transcend it and only give you what you need to truly grow

    I’m sick of you fucking destroying people’s lives as much as you make them and our ability to create a civilisation

    You may as well have not existed at all, then human suffering would have ended a long time ago

    Fuck you brain

     

     

     

    going pier jumping today gonna be fun at the beach

    go fuck yourself brain, every single day I will remind myself of the devil that you are, tearing peoples lives apart

    living life to the max, booyah!!!!!! New experiences every fucking day

    (knowing how to OWN this mother fucker overrated brain that we'll eventually replace and make peoples lives better than the inner torments they experience, do something new today, ignite yourself in new ways, you can do it  )

     

     

     

     

    Posted yesterday at 12:16 PM · Report post

    Title: Transcendent goal

    10 hours and 30 minutes on piano today, fucking badass session to push my limits

     

     

     

     

     

    Posted yesterday at 05:56 PM (edited) · Report post

    I am definitely just transcending the entire animal kingdom now on planet Earth, I'll have my connections sure, but I'll see through their biologies completely now with compassion, sternness and boundaries.

    The entire species, the entire animal kingdom.

    So if you speak to me, that means, if you want my trust, etc, you'll have to check your biology before you think about speaking to me because I've analysed yours already very well and I'm only becoming more sophisticated.

    Don't bother if you can't be authentic, don't bother if you're not interested in earning my respect overtime.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Posted 10 hours ago (edited) · Report post

    BOSSED IT

    got my 10 hours and 30 minutes done of piano

    (its probs more like 9 hours with the difficulty of the task and the associated attentional lapses but stoked anyhow)

    after I get up from my snooze I'm doing my second day in a row of 10 hours and 30 minutes

    don't want to use the energy I have on poetry, etc today / maybe I just don't have it in me today anyhow haha


     

     

     

     

     

    goal is to transcend this entire physical reality now

    (so not just what I mentioned two comments ago)

    Ironically this produces maximal life experience generation compared to its opposite, the former here also surprisingly only being the objective of very few, whether said experience is in mind or in physical, of course they go together where the mind can greatly reduce the energy expenditure of the physical through imagination, simulation, learning from the experiences of others, etc. Along with maximal life experience this also includes maximal connection with said life, etc, again, ironically/paradoxically.

    Edited 3 hours ago by Origins

  19. Posted · Edited by Origins

    24 minutes ago, Origins said:

    @tatsumaru Pure psychopathy aka primary psychopathy is purely genetic. Environmental is what's known as a secondary psychopath a category in which both sociopathy and narcissism fall into.

    I'm what I could term a spiritual psychopath :P , so I can scare you inter-dimensionally as opposed to just merely physically. I neither fall into the category of either primary nor secondary psychopathy.

    But I am dangerous. Extremely. 

    I just have no need to cause violence in areas where I don't see the necessity to do so, moreover violence has various connotations that fall outside the traditional survival reference frame of "physical" and even too, explicit forms of psychological forms of violence. I will neither cause purposeful physical nor psychological violence unless I see it as the right thing to do relative to my conscience, something that through traditional lenses a primary psychopath doesn't have, however "doesn't" is used fairly loosely.

    I'd much rather have creative discussions that extend my consciousness further than it was a second ago than to waste my time belting you with a bat or calling you names, I'm just not addicted to sadism in that sense, even if its mostly a lost cause relative to the population average I'm strategically manoeuvring myself to secure better social reinforcement here as my ties improve. 

    I'm definitely a predator, there's no doubt about it. I'm just not the kind of predator you'd be expecting. We create names to describe a perceived context in reality relative to levels of differentiation we've made regarding said context, all three are often merely transitionary points to something more sophisticated. Psychology is a frame of reference / reference frame, that is, the manner in which you are framing reality relative to certain assumptions you're making about it, its not an absolute determination its a relative determination. There's all kinds of "psychopaths" that exist, variations though that need clear discrimination which the distinction between primary and secondary is good enough for a large subset of related forms.

    Goodnight, truly yours: The Spiritual Boogeyman

     

     

     

    A real primary psychopath.

    A friend of mine.

    Don't listen to anyone else here otherwise you'll be less accurate, happy to challenge anyone here on that.

    Her Quora - https://www.quora.com/profile/Natalie-Marsh-15/answers

    She's a bit of a rascal sometimes otherwise not so bad as far as I can tell.

     

     

  20. Posted · Edited by Origins

    @tatsumaru Pure psychopathy aka primary psychopathy is purely genetic. Environmental is what's known as a secondary psychopath a category in which both sociopathy and narcissism fall into.

    I'm what I could term a spiritual psychopath :P , so I can scare you inter-dimensionally as opposed to just merely physically. I neither fall into the category of either primary nor secondary psychopathy.

    But I am dangerous. Extremely. 

    I just have no need to cause violence in areas where I don't see the necessity to do so, moreover violence has various connotations that fall outside the traditional survival reference frame of "physical" and even too, explicit forms of psychological forms of violence. I will neither cause purposeful physical nor psychological violence unless I see it as the right thing to do relative to my conscience, something that through traditional lenses a primary psychopath doesn't have, however "doesn't" is used fairly loosely.

    I'd much rather have creative discussions that extend my consciousness further than it was a second ago than to waste my time belting you with a bat or calling you names, I'm just not addicted to sadism in that sense, even if its mostly a lost cause relative to the population average I'm strategically manoeuvring myself to secure better social reinforcement here as my ties improve. 

    I'm definitely a predator, there's no doubt about it. I'm just not the kind of predator you'd be expecting. We create names to describe a perceived context in reality relative to levels of differentiation we've made regarding said context, all three are often merely transitionary points to something more sophisticated. Psychology is a frame of reference / reference frame, that is, the manner in which you are framing reality relative to certain assumptions you're making about it, its not an absolute determination its a relative determination. There's all kinds of "psychopaths" that exist, variations though that need clear discrimination which the distinction between primary and secondary is good enough for a large subset of related forms.

    Goodnight, truly yours: The Spiritual Boogeyman

     

     

  21. Posted · Edited by Origins

    Oh and then when they put on Netflix, watching the characters jump up and down in their minds causing physiological reactions from a screen as if they were almost their own, as if they were there in the show itself.

    So hilarious to me.

    So cute.

    There's almost just a complete absence of awareness, its like a pseudo sentience that exists.

    And then to hear them barely communicate about those images after the television show, or even argue about it on YouTube or some other social media site about the dynamics of said show barely reaching any abstract standard resembling human intelligence.

    .... The cherry on top of laughter haha

    Just... Completely gone 

    They get so wrapped up in these graphics that are so far from resembling positive cultural progression to the level of where it should and could be. It's like intermittent reinforcement concerning cultural progress from artistic media these days, you see one thing that's kind of cool once every 12 months or so which gives you hope for the future... It never gets beyond a certain level. People getting caught in that trap of thinking only as far as television shows as it slowly programs them in subtle ways.... That's also humorous to me. 

    So not just dry humour, dark humour as well. 

    It can easily be perceived as negative, but it is what it is, I find it easier to just imagine them as cute and adorable making those choices rather than sad and helpless. Like I said it is what it is, the dog poo's on the carpet, "Naughty ____insert pet name here___!", then a cuddle 5 minutes later. 

  22. Posted · Edited by Origins

    I just imagined the fact that most people walk around inside these skulls we have where life goes inside their senses and it just really amused me to see all these graphics enter their eyes and seeing that most of it just completely goes right over the top of most people's heads, like they barely perceive anything much less their own thoughts, experience, etc.

    It's so hilarious to me actually.

    Like there's so much there.

    And the best that some people can come up with sometimes is, "What's on Netflix?". It really makes you realise just how cute and harmless most people are. They're like cute animals inside mental cages they don't know much life outside of nor the true will to know until maybe, again maybe, one day life hits them, and that's when they make their transition.

  24. Posted · Edited by Origins

    So this is just to remind myself of who I was before Transcendence (which is not at all an alter ego nonsense stuff its just a way to simply call it what it is) so that I can more easily relate to other people at earlier stages of development, something which we all go through.

    This whole process will be a natural consolidation fo the integration of my consciousness, being, energy, etc as it concerns moving to greater levels of Transcendence. Secondly it'll be vital in gathering subtle thoughts about earlier stages I'm looking to depict in the album I'm working on to mirror the developmental phase of Transcendence I'm more or less having to develop myself for lack of adequate reference material. 

    Just throwing buzzing flies at the sky at the moment not sure which way they'll zig and zag, just that this journal has more than a 7 day lifecycle but that not all ideas will.

    Ideas:

    At the end of the day, its all autobiographical of course, everything else would be considered a stage beyond (transcendence)

    1. sink into the prior thoughts I used to have as a child, teenager, adult. Same too with feelings, intuitions, dreams, etc

    2. sink into the relationships I had during those three periods. What were the dynamics not in a conceptual but a felt sense. Its very important to weave myself away from conceptualisation and be as primitive as possible in the raw sensations, etc for conceptualisation is another level beyond that as well isn't overly developed when primitive sensations are underdeveloped.

    3. sink into stupid things, like what lollies, drinks, films, etc I liked in those stages and what sensations I had from those things

    -----

    4. after i've developed enough categories for the primitive moving into the slightly more conceptual, only slightly because its important to get an artistic lens on all the nuances form "stage" to "stage", not that they're so vertical like that anyhow. For example, what was my relationship with authority figures growing up? What was my relationship with other children growing up? etc

    That's all I have for now.

     

  25. Posted · Edited by Origins

    I think I should travel a little further back though so that the music has more relatable points if other people haven't reached this stage yet.

    For example I've done other improvisations further back in time that fit in some of the following (one of them I'll complete by the end of this week, its Monday where I am).

    I'd like to follow ego development points, Piaget's stages, Maslow's hierarchy, spiral dynamics, erikson's stages of ego development etc, all of these are useful creative tools to me, and the emphasis there is on the world creativity, thus "to create from" not to "cement in" (i.e. belief, ideology) :

     

    1. Stuck in maya (illusions of the world)

    ------ transitionary point ------

    2. Stuck in autobiography (illusion of self) - distinctness between self and other emerges, so "other" emerges

    ------ transitionary point ------

    3. Stuck in self awareness contemplation (illusion of awareness (?)

    ------ transitionary point ------

    4. stuck in..... being (?)

     

    5. And this is where I would put that Awakening Point described and linked above.

     

    6, 7, 8 etc the reflection of the rest of my development relative to where I am at present

     

    I'll need to encapsulate the earlier stages so that there's a relationship with earlier stages that can be understood conceptually as a whole. It takes a while to get where I am of course, its taken me my whole life so I should take where I am for granted or underestimate the difficulties others have in making said transition, I mean there's a reason after all why I'm here now as opposed to not being able to be here before. I hadn't "solved" / "resolved" things in my consciousness enough, integration, etc is not a linear thing, its not factoid either.

    With open mindedness, music can be seen as a reflective mirror of potentiality, contrast to ones present position, for better or for worse, of course, modern day music makes me cringe, not all, there's some nice ones, but most yeah we all know that.