Henri

@FeelFree Are you a robot? Why not?

@TimStr Actually the spiritual work is the key, the most important one to grow out of green. A lot of developmental lines will naturally develop, though not all of them. This is not necessary also. Next to integral spirituality study integral psychology also. You`ll get a deeper understanding.

@musicalwatch I think a genius does not have a problem with that dilemma. There`s no dilemma to him. He even does not have a choice. Life in a way has chosen him, the job has to be done and he`s the chosen one to do it.

The more awareness you`ll create, the better student you`ll become.

@Mat Pav Thanks for your reply from `Down Under` mate... On comments; ok, I can agree, nothing wrong to be meant. On teachers and beliefs; talking from enlightenment-perspective on teachers and beliefs. In a way everyone is your teacher, starting with your mom when you are born. Beliefs are always open to discussion, just because it`s a belief. Belief is a means, never a goal. On drugs; I`m experienced. Weed, Ganja, LSD, mushrooms, cocaine and XTC. I used to work in `coffeeshops` in Holland. I grew my own weed. All my life I was very much interested in, like you, everything that`s got to do with the mind, psychology, trans-personal stuff, philosophy and the Huxley-gang. So I know where you guy`s are after when doing psychedelics, there`s nothing strange about that. It`s just that I very consciously had to experience the consequences also. When giving up, sitting down to find out truth, living in ashrams I was forced to endure those consequences and I can tell you it was hell. The shit that came out physically, mentally, emotionally was exhausting. The pranayamakosha was almost ruined. For weeks I had nightmares where I before never even remembered a dream. Meditation was hell, `demons` rising up and much more shit. Experiences I had while under influence of drugs where still alive in my head, coming back all the time but now twisted and formed in other shapes. Due to great luck, good fortune or good karma I met someone who gave me a total cleansing up process to undergo. This was my salvation though it took 6 weeks to accomplish. Years later I had the bliss to enter the state of Samadhi. And from my experience mate, I can tell you that it is of another category than psychedelics. Had I before the opinion that heaven on earth was my experience to live with my love on the beach in Goa, tripping almost every day, than I knew heaven on earth is really something else. So the warning about drugs is out of experience though I am able to understand you all out there. And I am telling you that tripping has got nothing to do with the state of Samadhi. So if you are after enlightenment, do not take drugs. If you just want the good life, go for it.

@DreamSpirit I had a such a good laugh after reading your reply, I could not almost stop anymore... Let me explain. A shaman from the Amazon lives in the jungle, so one can say he is a jungle-guy. Like when you are living in the city you are a city-guy. But instead I used the word `bush` what to my opinion was the same as in dutch `bos`, which means woods or forest. So forest-guy would have been good also. But I just found out that the word `bush` does not mean `forest` or `wood`in English/American language but `plant`. Am I right here so far? So I can imagine it`sounds weird the phrase I used and I can apologize for that though it was a bit out of ignorance. In South Africa the word `bush` is also a common word, but that`s probably because it`s coming out of dutch language. The tone I use is not on purpose. Part of the reason can be that, as you found out, the English language is not my native language and when expressing myself, to my opinion the facts are more important than the tone. By the way, when you`ll have a look on some other posts including the ones in the topic `psychedelics`, I think you`ll agree on this, that I am not willingly and on purpose write in an unfriendly way. So giving a warning just because of that, I do not understand. When this is where you draw the line I would suggest you to read all the posts everyday so you can give dozens of warnings. Furthermore this site is not only about goody, goody, goody. We can have real discussions here and off course support each other, learn from each other and inspire each other. To show you that just read some of my posts. You`ll find out I am having the best intentions. When you tell me I have crossed a line, to my opinion you have crossed a line as a moderator by proclaiming drugs. May be this is because I think to high about what the job of a moderator is on a site devoted to self-actualization. When so I apologize for that, someone can indeed have other standards. Concerning the topic `psychedelics` I would appreciate it, if you would give your response to the opinions I have given.

@David1 Well mate, your comment says you are green by the spiral dynamics. You believe everybody is having his own truth? It`s all just a subjective party?

What Leo teaches us with his work, self-actualization, enlightenment-work with his videos and his words is knowledge, it is science. The ancient spiritual methods towards enlightenment is science, the highest science possible to study and work on in this life. We talk about the science of yoga, the science of pranayama, the science of meditation. Doing psychedelics is no science. It is gambling with your life, gambling with the gift of life. There is no certain or known outcome. You do not know which tendencies or karma you will be awaken while taking psychedelics. You do not know the dangers that are hidden concerning one of your kosha`s. There is nothing you know in advance. It`s one big gamble. Self-development, self-actualization, self-enlightenment is far away from gambling. It is the ultimate truth, the ultimate science.

Haha, complete enlightenment is supposed to be the same, all the time it`s there right in front of your nose. Isn`t it great those small realizations?

Hi there, when I was your age I was reading Plato at that time, though I did not get the most of it. My advice, read everything you can lay your hands on, what in any way catches your interest. As broad as possible. This gives you a strong foundation and will make you broadminded for the rest of your life. With 14 you are in the middle of your development (western style!) and you have all the freedom to learn as much as possible. Self-actualization is not yet your concern, though I`m curious what @Leo Gura`s opinion is about your question.

@David1 I fully agree with everything you said. Experience is always the highest. Nevertheless experiences need to be interpreted. So taking psychedelics and having that experience is one thing, but afterwards interpreted them in a wrong way is something else. Believing (!) psychedelics give you the same experience as spiritual work is no right knowledge. Without the right knowledge where do you go with your interpretations? Is a 15 year old right when he tells you he feels spiritual after smoking his first joint?

When money is not that important to you, quit the job. In Holland there are lots of opportunities to study, work, both or whatever. Just do not get stuck in daydreaming about some pleasant future. Move on, improve and develop yourself. Find a spiritual practice you like and go for it. This gives you steadiness and a base in your life. You sound very young, so now it`s the time to achieve that.

With a smile on my face and love in my heart...

Doing nothing is working with the mind and using willpower is working with the intellect. Intellectuals usually use the willpower, because in the end the will is nothing else than a thought. A strong will being a strong and repeating thought. Working with the mind goes deeper and when the cause of the problem is rooted in the mind this is the only solution.

A lot of relatives turned in a way their back on me in the past. They said I`d changed after spending some years in India. They did not understand me anymore and I did understand that! It was not a problem to me. Nowadays they come back, they want to talk. They are old aged and some died already. They are scared and I am there.

@Richard Alpert Spirituality is about up-lifting the spirit. In a healthy `spiritual` way one has to undergo specific training before even have the possibility to get to the point to experience Samadhi. This training is essential. You are preparing your 4 kosha`s (bodies) and work with body, mind, intellect and the energy, the prana. It`s like building a house, you first need a good foundation. In that sense it is possible to get to the top of the house without even having a foundation that is ready. Off course. You can take a ladder and climb 10 meters high to join the view. But it`s dangerous, you can easily fall down. The reason so called enlightened ones fall down doing ordinary human stuff like the common stories about teachers having sex with their pupils is just because of that. They never build a good foundation, it`s just waiting for their karma to get activated. So would you call someone who climbed the ladder a spiritual person? Would you call him a good constructor? I would call him ignorant and fooled, though their experiences can off course be profound to the untrained eye. The video about Ram Dass telling his experiences with mushrooms is a good one. He is having this amazing experience with his ego, his personality and the transcendence of it. Sure it`s spectacular. The funny thing though is that Ram Dass is so immersed in telling how his experience was, telling all the little details of it, how transforming it all was to him. But it is in no way comparable with experiencing Samadhi. You have ever heard someone talk that way when coming out of Samadhi? No, it`s a total different category. The first Samadhi you`ll experience is when in the building process the highest point is reached. You can walk up the stairs and enjoy the view all around from different viewpoints. You see easily the still unfinished work in a very safe way. And the biggest difference is that when you come down the stairs to join the other constructors you are not going to tell them what an amazing experience you have had. No, you point them out what`s the work still to be done. You support them with their own unfinished jobs and you`ll do that with compassion, love, joy, where in no way any `I` is involved. You have become the perfect teacher and manager, the one who knows. So we can argue if the view on top of the ladder is comparable with the view on the rooftop. To my opinion it`s not and I state that with the same video about Ram Dass. In Samadhi there is no room for bad trips, fear and anxiety. Samadhi is total bliss, Sat, Chit and Ananda.

@Ant The topic `psychedelics` comes down to the question if experiences with psychedelics can be called spiritual. They are not, as simply as that. If someone wants to take drugs, be my guest. Just do not say you are coming closer to enlightenment, truth or whatever. One can even say who wants to take psychedelics? Ego looking for out of ego experiences without the intention to actually `do` something, meaning developing yourself in any way by meditation, yoga or another spiritual discipline. It`s really typical western hubris.

Great discussion here... Given 5 warning points for verbally abusing the moderator... Can somebody give me some insights here, because I am totally unaware.

Krishnamurti on drugs Why should one not take drugs? Questioner: Why should one not take drugs? You apparently seem to be against it. Your own prominent friends have taken them, have written books about them, encouraged others to take them, and they have experienced with great intensity the beauty of a simple flower. We, too, have taken them and we would like to know why you seem to be opposed to these chemical experiences. After all, our whole physical organism is a biochemical process, and adding to it an extra chemical may give us an experience which may be an approximation to the real. You yourself have not taken drugs, have you? So how can you, without experimenting condemn them? Krishnamurti: No, we have not taken drugs. Must one get drunk to know what sobriety is? Must one make oneself ill to find out what health is? As there are several things involved in taking drugs, let us go into the whole question with care. What is the necessity of taking drugs at all - drugs that promise a psychedelic expansion of the mind, great visions and intensity? Apparently one takes them because one's own perceptions are dull. Clarity is dimmed and one's life is rather shallow, mediocre and meaningless; one takes them to go beyond this mediocrity. The intellectuals have made of the drugs a new way of life. One sees throughout the world the discord, the neurotic compulsions, the conflicts, the aching misery of life. One is aware of the aggressiveness of man, his brutality, his utter selfishness, which no religion, no law, no social morality has been able to tame. There is so much anarchy in man - and such scientific capacities. This imbalance brings about havoc in the world. The unbridgable gap between advanced technology and the cruelty of man is producing great chaos and misery. This is obvious. So the intellectual, who has played with various theories - Vedanta, Zen, Communist ideals, and so on - having found no way out of man's predicament, is now turning to the golden drug that will bring about dynamic sanity and harmony. The discovery of this golden drug - the complete answer to everything - is expected of the scientist and probably he will produce it. And the authors and the intellectuals will advocate it to stop all wars, as yesterday they advocated Communism or Fascism. But the mind, with its extraordinary capacities for scientific discoveries and their implementation, is still petty, narrow and bigoted, and will surely continue, will it not, in its pettiness? You may have a tremendous and explosive experience through one of these drugs, but will the deep-rooted aggression, bestiality and sorrow of man disappear? If these drugs can solve the intricate and complex problems of relationship, then there is nothing more to be said, for then relationship, the demand for truth, the ending of sorrow, are all a very superficial affair to be resolved by taking a pinch of the new golden drug. <BR? Surely this is a false approach, isn't it? It is said that these drugs give an experience approximating to reality therefore they give hope and encouragement. But the shadow is not the real; the symbol is never the fact. As is observed throughout the world, the symbol is worshipped and not the truth. So isn't it a phoney assertion to say that the result of these drugs is near the truth? No dynamic golden pill is ever going to solve our human problems. They can be solved only by bringing about a radical revolution in the mind and the heart of man. This demands hard, constant work, seeing and listening, and thus being highly sensitive. The highest form of sensitivity is the highest intelligence, and no drug ever invented by man will give this intelligence. Without this intelligence there is no love; and love is relationship. Without this love there is no dynamic balance in man. This love cannot be given - by the priests or their gods, by the philosophers, or by the golden drug. http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/the-dark-side-of-ayahuasca-20130215 http://riverbankoftruth.com/2014/06/17/the-extreme-danger-of-ayahuasca-by-greg-calise/ One of the most recurring myths about ayahuasca has to do with the presence of DMT in the brain. According to this theory –popularized by Richard Strassman in his book ‘The Spirit Molecule’–, a gland secretes DMT in the fetus and in the exact moment we die, as well as during REM sleep. However, this evocative metaphor is challenged by science: “We are aware that there is DMT in our nervous system but these are hardly traces and there is no evidence that this substance is involved in any mental process; likewise, in our body there are 40 other tryptamines,” says neuroscientist José Carlos Bouso. “The hypothesis of DMT as‘The Spirit Molecule’ is just that: a pure hypothesis, as Strassman himself has later acknowledged, although it has been taken as axiomatic by many people”.

@Mutupo The best translation of Patanjali I am aware off. http://www.yogastudies.org/wp-content/uploads/Science_of_Yoga-Taimni.pdf

Yes, in a way your now practising niyama, the second limb of the yoga sutra`s of Patanjali. This gives you a steady base for all your future efforts on the spiritual path.@Mutupo

@DreamSpirit There is a difference in meaning of the word ` dope`. In Holland we consider dope as a stimulating substance, but I found out in the US the meaning is less wide. Anyway clearing this up. Yes, off course psychedelics can change your perspective on reality, they are supposed to do. It`s why people take them. Only just a few take them to achieve so called spiritual experiences. So this gives rise to the following questions; - Can you call experiences out of psychedelics `spiritual`? For sure these experiences are different than the everyday experience. They can even be beyond ego-experiences so it`s in a way really a different perspective on reality. The worlds spiritual disciplines however all agree on this point that it`s not spiritual and the main reason for that is that it is forced in an unnatural way. You can compare it with going to fly with a plane or with a hang-glider. With a plane you go high up, but you need a pilot, you need fuel, you can only look out of the window and you are totally dependent and not aware where you are going. Being back on earth you`ll have to interpret your experiences the right way and you cannot because you lack the right knowledge. With a hang-glider however it`s a different story. You are free as a bird, can look a 360 degrees, are in control where to go, how long, the way, all your senses are there and there is not the problem of interpret your experiences when back on earth. This comparison will do to get the difference. - Do genuine spiritual teachers use psychedelics or recommend it? None of the people I call genuine do that. It`s even so that they warn against the use of any drugs. It`s well known that more people are doomed because the dark side of psychedelics than there are people who really benefit from it considering their own development. Off course we can argue on the question who are the genuine spiritual teachers. To me these are mainly the famous Hindu and Buddhist teachers who are rooted in a tradition that goes back a long way. When you consider Graham Hancock a genuine spiritual teacher we can finish the discussion. You`ll qualify yourself as an ignorant person with a lack of knowledge. - Isn`t the shaman who gives you Ayahuasca a spiritual teacher, who is having a lot of knowledge about it? He is not. He is an ignorant magic/mythic thinking bush-guy who cheats ignorant western people by promising them paradise. The only knowledge he is having is of a plant. Here we arrive at a remarkable point of the discussion. People using drugs are in a way so ignorant. They want liberation and experiences the 21th century way. I want it and I want it now! They don`t understand that even growing up takes 18 years for the body and 25 years for the psychological part and think enlightenment is some instant device you can achieve under a tree in the Amazon by eating a plant. Think about it! You are all so ignorant..... Anyway, the topic drugs, psychedelics, Ayahuasca and whatever is already a lot discussed on this site. To my opinion it`s in a way ruining this site when it`s discussed next to the real spiritual stuff. It`s like a site which is devoted to the newest cars and people are throwing posts of their newest bikes on it. So @Leo Gura maybe a good suggestion to make a separate chapter on the drugs stuff to keep it away from real and more important posts?

@Dash Us Pain Shame..., that was the second one...

@Dash Us Pain That`s a boring one! Please don`t make two out of it...

@JevinR If you want to become a yogi, start with the theory first. Study `The Yoga Sutra`s` by Patanjali. This will take a year at least to understand.