r0ckyreed

It’s impossible to awaken because then you would just be awakening to another dream. You wake up from one dream to realize that you are still asleep in another. I guess “awakening” is realizing that there are infinite dreams and it is impossible to escape dreaming. Total Awakening from all dreams is itself a fantasy dream.

@zurew The same method I use to validate my introspection is the same method you use to validate your logic. You would be a fool if you doubt that you are reading these words right now. You cannot doubt it because you are doing it. Otherwise, there is no point in replying and having a conversation about this because then you doubt that too. You seem to be really certain that consciousness can be doubted without realizing that your doubt could not exist without consciousness. If what you are saying is true, then you cannot even trust your own logic and criticisms that you have. You have never validated your own logic. How could you without using logic?

@Leo Gura If we can prove that Christianity is false in one possible world/dream, then Christianity can’t be absolutely true.

Yes, but existence/actuality is more fundamental than concepts. Concepts are a second-order phenomenon. Christianity is an idea. Jesus is an ego. The idea of a son of God and 10 commandments are all conceptual. Existence doesn't have the 10 commandments attached to it. This is something that is imagined by the Universe. What the Universe imagines isn't the "mechanism" or source of the Universe. I could have a dream about Christianity and cutting up my skull and seeing a brain. But that does not mean that the brain in my dream is the source of my dream or that the Christianity that I am dreaming to be real is what is producing the dream. Science and religion can point to patterns, but they are all occurring within the Absolute. They depend on the Absolute. The Absolute doesn't depend on them. This is why I think that it is impossible for such as dream where Christianity actually equals the Absolute Truth. I am not sure if this makes sense, but this is how my mind right now is making sense of it.

So does this mean that there is "stuff behind the scene"? That there is an external world, meaning that there is stuff outside of what I perceive? It sounds like your toilet still exists even when I am not looking at it.

By raising your consciousness. Look, if you want to know whether the earth is round or flat or whatever, you would have to go meta and travel where you cannot normally navigate, which is upwards. Once you see that the earth is round, you can no longer hold your previous view that it was flat. The same holds with whatever truth you find. If you think Christianity is true, then go and question it to death honestly and you will discover more truths. A person who doesn't care about truth and just wants to believe will find all the evidence that supports their beliefs. You will know you are not mistaken when you have raised your consciousness higher than your previous state. That is the first step. You have to admit that you do not know and get into a genuine state of not-knowing. From that state of not-knowing, you will raise your consciousness and get to true knowing. Admit that right now you do not know if you can assess your consciousness right now and you may find that your level of introspection has raised just from admitting that simple truth. That is one of the reasons why I state that complete enlightenment/awakening is an illusion because there will always be a high level of understanding. The idea that you will completely understand reality is a fantasy because reality is infinite and being human comes with inherent limits in understanding. Not so fast. Your level of consciousness as a human will always be limited and there will always be higher states because consciousness is infinite. That isn't a glitch but a feature of infinity. You will know which belief will be undermined as you gain more consciousness. Like I said, you will not get to Absolute Truth if you don't value and practice honesty and openness. You have to deal with the limits at hand and strive to do your best each day to kill what is false. As a spiritual practice, just practice writing down what you think is absolutely true and then see how what you wrote is false. Your getting lost in this "levels of consciousness" paradigm. It is a useful way of looking at consciousness, but this model also has its limits. No state of consciousness is particularly better than any other. Some states will be more efficient than others depending on the situation. A drunken state may help you will confidence but not with intelligence for instance. A meditative state may help you attain peace of mind, and a contemplative state could lead to existential understanding. Each state has its own perks and cons. You seem to be asking this question backwards. The question is not what state of consciousness I need to make the following claim, but rather what do I genuinely know or rather not-know from my state of consciousness in this very moment. You are only dealing with your current state of consciousness and you making claims isn't going to raise it. It is genuine contemplation that will raise your state, and genuine contemplation involves questioning hidden assumptions and blindspots which could take years and decades of disciplined work. It cannot be doubted. The fact that you are reading these words and are able to type cannot be doubted. That is like saying that your hand doesn't exist when you are typing right now. You cannot doubt that experience is happening right now. Haven't you noticed that reality itself is circular? How does God exist? God invented itself. What methods does God use to know itself without using a circular process like introspection? To even answer this question requires introspection. Introspection is the heart of all understanding. How do you know logic is logical without using logic? How do you know your senses are accurate without using your senses? You have to bite the bullet and accept that introspection is circular because it is the foundation of understanding. You can only know whether your introspection is accurate or not through introspection. If that is true, then you go with that. You need to verify it all with your direct experience. If your direct experience says it is true and if Leo says it is false, you consider Leo's perspective and try to test it out in your direct experience. If your direct experience states otherwise, then you go with your own insights from your direct experience because that is what is true at this given time for you. If you ask me if the earth is flat or round, I am going to give you the truth and that is that I do not know. I am going to go with my direct experience and test your claim that it is round through my direct experience. If I go out into space and the earth is flat, then that will be what is true. If I just take your word that it is round or make claims that it is round, then that will be false.

That would be because we are missing honesty in the equation. Someone who is honest and has a high consciousness will be able to introspect and be aware of beliefs they hold that can be doubted. Doubting typically means that you are aware of something that isn’t based on certainty and truth. What is meant by absolute truth is something that you cannot be mistaken about. I have the appearance of a phone in front of me. That cannot be doubted. That cannot be mistaken, and so that makes it absolutely true.

That’s what I figured. I got it. I guess the point you were making is that there is nothing stopping Quanon and Islam from being true in another universe. The issue that I have is that from an epistemic standpoint, I can only know this world. All those other multi universes are hypothetical as they are more conceptual than actual. From an ontological standpoint, I cannot travel to a different dimension/dream because that would still be this one. My hand is actual and all those other worlds are concept and imagination. The part I had trouble following is that Christianity cannot be absolutely true in any universe because it is conceptual rather than actual. Christianity cannot be observed. I can look at my hand and that is actual, but Christianity is concept and imagination.

Absolute Truth has to deal with what is true absolutely. We need to base our knowledge on what is absolutely true. If you can doubt something, then you don’t really know it. It takes alot of honesty because you can also be overly arrogant and have no doubts when you are wrong.

So then how can we say that anyone is wrong? This just makes Trump supporters just as valid and true as a Sage. There is nothing stopping Christianity from being absolutely true. Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but there seem to be objective truths in a relative sense such as being wrong about what makes one happy.

@Leo GuraIt is hard to imagine them being Absolute because they are so relative. Whose version of Christianity would be Absolute. There are a billion flavors of Christianity. Which one could be true? Also, if God can create something, doesn’t that imply that it is contingent on God? If God creates Christianity as Absolute Truth. God would have to fool itself into believing that. Christianity would only appear to be absolutely true if God deluded itself to that degree. But everything that God creates has to depend on God. Christianity couldn’t exist without Consciousness /God. I am not understanding how it is possible. It is like God is lifting a stone more powerful than itself. But I don’t think God really couldn’t do that unless God uses his unlimited power to limit its own power. I am not sure how a concept such as Jesus or the Space Kangaroo could be Absolutely True when it is contingent on the Mind imagining it. You make a good point that consciousness can be devoid of wisdom but not devoid of intelligence. It takes intelligence to have a dumb state of consciousness. But an highly intelligent form of consciousness I would suggest would have some degrees of wisdom associated with it. When we are talking about God/The Universe, we are talking about the most intelligent/wisest consciousness there is. The issue I have in understanding your last statement is that I am only on my own island. My human consciousness cannot explore other islands and lands beyond my own perception. Anything that I imagine outside of my consciousness is an idea held inside of my consciousness. There may be other consciousnesses or other dreams/worlds outside my own, but I could never access them or prove that. That is why I say to not speculate about other dreams/worlds because the only world that can be known absolutely is my own consciousness right now. My subjective experience is absolute truth. I cannot deny or doubt it. Even if I were to travel to another island, it would still be my island. If I were to experience another consciousness, it would still be my experience. We cannot escape this ramification of epistemological solipsism.

@Leo GuraI am not sure if I agree. The Universe could imagine a reality where Christianity and Quanon appear to be true. But Truth is more fundamental than any human idea about reality. The ideas in the Bible and Christianity are all relative, and therefore, they cannot be absolutely true. The only Absolute Truth I know is that the Universe/Consciousness exists. It is absolutely true because it is something that exists in "all possible worlds" and cannot be doubted/mistaken. A Christian's dream seems to include that Christianity is "absolute truth." They misinterpret the teachings of Jesus such as thinking that Jesus is the only way to truth, hence, "I am the way the truth and the life" quote. Many Christians seems to misunderstand those teachings. But at the same time, some relativist would say that it is just my perspective that they misunderstand. But I argue that my perspective or their perspective could be wrong relative to what is actually true about reality. We may not ever know, but there are true and false ways of looking and navigating reality. Wisdom seems to be more than a human notion. Wisdom seems to be a connection to higher intelligence, things beyond the human. That is what I think makes wisdom, wisdom is that it isn't just a human construction, but rather a connection to the true nature of something. It also takes wisdom to know that crocodiles don't care about wisdom. And it takes wisdom to not test it out by petting a crocodile with my "wisdom." However, I just had a thought that maybe crocodiles do unconsciously care about some forms of "wisdom" relative to their survival. If a crocodile could hunt more efficiently and could avoid getting killed, it would take the "wiser" path. Wisdom isn't devoid from survival. Wisdom is highly practical. I see now that wisdom can be relative to different organisms. A crocodile might never be able to have the type of mind capable of contemplation. But the crocodile can find wisdom in other ways to live more in alignment with how reality is. That crocodile that ate that old woman wasn't wise because it got euthanized. A really profoundly wise crocodile could grok this one day. Evolution is an intelligent process and sometimes can be a process of wisdom as well. But maybe I am conflating wisdom and intelligence too closely together because there are subtle differences. I would say that while it is great for thought experiments, I don't think we should speculate about other worlds because the only world that I can be sure that exists is this one. But even if there were other worlds that exist where somehow everything Trump is doing is correct and democrats are fools (I don't see how this could be possible but lets go with it), then they could be right but for the wrong reasons. Just like believing that ghosts are real, but it turns out that it was another type of dangerous being. You can see that their mind is fundamentally not in alignment with reality in all possible worlds. Because in all possible worlds, they would be buying into all kinds of delusions in these "other kinds of worlds/dreams." They could be right about one thing like Trump but wrong about so many other things because their methods will produce more fallacious results than truth.

@Leo GuraYes but what about foolishness. At lower levels of consciousness, a fool is deluded and thinks they are right and that wisdom is just relative. But at higher levels of consciousness, we see that wisdom has more objective features even as it relates to relative domains. There is a way that reality is structured and relative to how reality is structured right now, there are objective truths relative to this structure and self-imposed rule-sets. A person could believe in the Christian God and that Jesus is King. And that the Bible is true. But these people are wrong in all possible worlds because the Bible is content within consciousness. There is no pulling this out from the rug and changing the objective truth. It is easier to be wrong than it is to be right because the only thing I know I am right about is that consciousness exists. People may think that death isn’t real or that there is an afterlife. These people would be right or wrong relative to the actual structure of reality and this would be independent of their beliefs but still dependent on the Universe/Consciousness. Delusion is relative/dependent to the structure of reality. This does not mean that delusion is an illusion. It just means that given that gravity exists on earth, it would be a delusion to think you can fly with no other modifications. Wisdom also seems to be relative and objective at the same time. If there is no objectivity, then wisdom does not really exist because wisdom suggests that one’s attitudes and way of life are in alignment with truth, how reality works. But if it is all relative, then a Trump supporter is as wise as a Sage. However, wisdom is also relative in the sense that when we evaluate a certain belief or individual as wise, we are imposing our own subjective criteria into that. What makes a belief or somebody wise? This question seems to have objective and subjective elements to it and there could be an infinitude of possible answers.

@Leo GuraYou seem to have a different definition of objectivity than the traditional philosophical one. The traditional definition of objectivity is typically defined as something being true if nobody believed it or even if no conscious beings existed. The issue I see is that something could be “objective” within the dream but at the same time still be dependent on the existence of the nature of the dream/dreamer itself. For example, the laws of physics would be contingent on the dreamer having that specific dream even though that the dream does not have control over the laws of physics. So it is a kind of contradiction it seems. Your point about different dreamers having different dreams seems to challenge the idea of a shared, objective reality. The fact that we are able to do science and communicate seems to imply that there is a shared dream/reality. If it isn’t true across all dreams, then wouldn’t that be relative and not objective? Objective would be true across all dreams? I would also say that what most people call relative truths could also be objective truths as well. Thinking that happiness and health is purely subjective. But there is a science behind happiness and health and there are right and wrong strategies to attain happiness and good health. Also personal values is another one like I said. You could say that you value truth, but in reality, your behaviors could contradict that - cognitive dissonance. But at the same time, I ask myself why reality is the way that it is at all. Why is reality set up in this way to where these particular things are objective? Could they not be objective? But at the same time, what would limit the Universe to not be able to change some of these objective truths like the earth being round? If they could be changed then they wouldn’t be objective per se, but if they couldn’t be changed, then the Universe may not be infinite? Maybe it is possible to have objective truths that do change over time such as right now it is true regardless of what you believe that there are no aliens on Earth. But this could change. People can be deluded about aliens having visited earth. People could think that other minds do exist outside their own but they can be wrong about that. People could also go the other extreme and become solipsists. But more fundamental truths such as Consciousness itself cannot be changed because they are what it is and cannot be another way.

I used to engage in a meditation practice. But I recently discovered that meditation is a waste of time. I realized that I get the same benefits if not more when I go out, hike in nature, and contemplate consciousness. Contemplation, exercising in nature, and socializing have been my 3 greatest spiritual practices. Here is a simple example why meditation is a waste of time. Imagine that you are playing an open world video game like Skyrim. Imagine just sitting your character up with the greybreards for the entire game just meditating. Do you see how limited your experience would be? You wouldn’t get the character development that you need to grow if you just play the whole game up meditating with the graybeards. Life is too short to become a monk drone. There is so much of life to experience and so much growth. When you are meditating, you are not doing something else such as exercising, socializing, fulfilling your life purpose, etc. Now, of course, brief meditation won’t harm you, but I don’t see how it could help you any more than contemplation. Contemplation is the art of understanding and curiosity. How can you be curious with a silent mind? Do you see how if you just meditate all day, you won’t be thinking and contemplating deeply. You won’t get off the cushion and enjoy life out in nature. Essentially, your life is no different than you being in prison, except this is a prison of your own choosing. There is more to life than staring at a cave wall. Notice how unintelligent of a life this would be. You wouldn’t even watch a video game streamer do this. Something to think about.

I agree that it contradicts, but Absolute Relativism holds that the only Absolute Truth is that everything is relative. But as we can see, this doesn’t seem to be right because people can be deluded about reality and it isn’t just an opinion.

This actually brings up a good question that I will make a separate post about: How is it possible to be wrong if reality is relative?

Hey guys, I was wrong. I was overlooking times when meditation did connect me to absolute beauty. However, meditation being the center of one’s life may not be a good idea.

You are everything. Everything you see, hear, smell, touch, taste, think, feel is you, Infinite Mind. Yes. It is a good one. However, Contemplation works much better for me as it is natural for me to think and ponder deep questions. It is hard for me to quiet my curiosity, and I don't think I want to. Beautiful. We all have unique experiences. Every once and a while, I will do a brief meditation practice, but like I said, I don't want my life to be centered around quieting my curiosity. I want to expand my curiosity, and I find that contemplation is the right practice for me. Meditation is usually a waste of time except for moments where I need to relax into stillness.

But you are the Universe. You are everything. The issue with the Netti Netti practice is that it creates a subtle, overlooked duality between that which you are and that which you aren’t. You are your thoughts, your body, the tree, the stars, the solar system. The issue is that there is an attachment to your thoughts and body over everything else that prevents you from seeing your identity as being the Universe having a human experience.

My understanding came from many different sources. We are essentially saying the same things. You are letting go of thoughts and as much your mind becomes quieter. I am against this. I think we should use our mind and not let it go. I think we should contemplate our identity rather than let it go. You are gonna be an ego, you might as well be a conscious ego. Sitting on the couch for 2 hours is a waste of time. I have meditated for 5 hours straight and got no benefit from it. I actually get more benefit sitting with a journal and contemplating. If you call that meditation, then what isn’t meditation. I wouldn’t call contemplation a meditation because it is a different technique and paradigm all together. This will lead us into the problem of what isn’t a meditation and then the word meditation loses all meaning because everything is a meditation. Meditation refers to a specific practice that you do to quiet the mind and become more present to the moment.

I even asked Claude 3 Ai on the differences between meditation and contemplation and it gave me this: The key differences between meditation and contemplation are: 1. Mental engagement: Meditation aims to quiet the mind and reduce thinking by focusing on a single point like the breath. Contemplation actively engages the mind in deep reflection on an idea or question. 2. Goal: The main goal of meditation is cultivating mindfulness, awareness, and inner stillness. Contemplation seeks to gain new insights and understanding that can transform one's perspective. 3. Role of thought: In meditation, the aim is to observe thoughts without getting caught up in them. Contemplation deliberately uses thought, analysis and questioning to thoroughly examine a topic from many angles. 4. Focus: Meditation usually has a single, simple focus like a mantra or sensation. Contemplation explores a more complex theme or open-ended question. 5. Activity: Meditation is often a formal seated practice done for a set time with closed eyes. Contemplation can happen spontaneously during activities like walking in nature when one reflects deeply on something. So in summary, meditation quiets the mind and develops awareness, equanimity and presence. Contemplation uses active reflection to gain understanding and insight that can motivate growth and change. Both are valuable and can complement each other as part of a thoughtful approach to deepening wisdom and self-knowledge. The key is using them skillfully in a balanced way rather than going to an extreme with either.

I think I may have overstepped a bit. Meditation should be about being more present in life, connecting deeply to the eternal now. However, I have troubles with people overglamorizing meditation and making it about shutting up the mind. I do agree with you all on being the mindful and not mechanical. But I think meditation gets overglamorized. It should be as simple as engaging one’s curiosity and asking thoughtful questions with the goal of understanding.

And keep in mind guys, I am not just picking on meditation. Anything to the extreme is a trap. Reading books all day everyday becomes limiting. Same with videogames. Contemplation done correctly won’t ever be a waste of time. If your contemplation isn’t transforming you and getting you to take action, then your contemplation practice needs to change or it will turn into toxic meditation as well.

I have done it. Osho defines everything as meditation. He even defines running and dancing as a meditation. When in reality, it is just applying mindfulness to whatever you are doing. We need to be careful in defining everything as a meditation because then that term becomes meaningless and immeasurable. Imagine playing an entire video game where all you are doing is doing dynamic meditation. Now, imagine a video game where you are engaged in deep contemplation and are going out in nature trying to explore, enjoy, and understand consciousness. There is a difference. Brief meditation may be beneficial if you cannot function on a basic psychological level such as controlling your own thoughts and urges, not having suicidal ideation, etc. However, extensive meditation, a life built around meditation, becomes limiting. I was even thinking about this when I was meditating in a national park. I was like “why should I close my eyes and count my breath when I have such beauty I can observe, enjoy, and contemplate right in front of me? To meditate the entire time I am here in Yosemite, I would deeply regret that and not going out to enjoy the park.”