LfcCharlie4

@Arzola I know I'm one of the people who took this model too seriously. It was actually Ananda (Ramaji's partner) who forced me to drop it, along with all other concepts during our sessions haha, and she explained how it is simply a model to help students & teachers on their journeys, and certainly isn't perfect. I used to be quite dogmatic about Psyches, but what I realized was I was just worried about the potential for abuse, at the end of the days, these substances have helped a lot of people, and it is down to each individual to know the risks associated & the (potential) benefits from each. So, it is certainly valid to raise objections / questions against anything to find the truth. And, I realized Psyches have helped 1000s of people, and to stop being dogmatic! Just because it wasn't 'my' path, doesn't mean it won't be someone else's!

@Blackhawk I mean I already linked you a book to read, but you dismissed it. https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/article/lifestyle-articles/emf/ https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2017/09/03/electromagnetic-fields-harmful-effects.aspx Start with those 2, but I would highly recommend both Dr Mercola's book (he goes into detail about the lobbying involved in Big Wireless Tech, the science on the effects & most importantly, how to protect yourself) Radiation Nation. At the end of the day, it's up to you if you research it, in my opinion, the effects are already clear to see not just on physical, but especially mental health, there's a reason Big Tech execs & founders don't let their children use their own creations But, that's another discussion for another day.

Also, just wanted to add, why does it matter relatively speaking of people find value in this model & it helps them on their journey? I know it certainly helped me, especially indirectly me as it led me to Ananda. I used to be the same with psyches and would make out they weren’t as valuable etc, but they clearly help a lot of people & I was wrong. Different strokes for different folks. If it helps people genuinely awaken, that’s all that really matters. Of course we should discuss the limitations of such models, and the drawbacks, but to disregard them completely seems to me the other end of the spectrum as taking them as absolute, which not only no model is, but no words, book, pointer etc, because as soon as you speak, the truth is modulated. The absolute can only be truly discovered in silence.

@Blackhawk good discussion there on the impacts EMFs could have on our health, that’s how we make progress isn’t it? Disregard things without questioning them, I guess we will see how bollocks it is in the coming decades.

Neither have Psychedelics, forms of inquiry or certain spiritual teachers or books, doesn’t mean they didn’t then help other people. Doesn’t mean we can’t develop to help make even more beings conscious, and aid them in the process. If people take them too seriously, yes there’s a problem, as absolutely you’re right they are irrelevant & must be let go of, in fact Ramaji makes that clear in his teachings, it’s simply a tool to help people, not a perfect structure of reality. Reality is always this, no matter what anyone does. It doesn’t mean we can’t strive to find ways to help make the path less confusing & help find ways to awaken more beings.

This video came up on my recommended, and I couldn't resist a Rupert video. And, I'm glad I did, certainly one of if not his best videos on merging the Inward & Outward paths to arrive home, fully. I like to call it having your cake and eating it too! We don't have to be afraid of the world, or reject X, Y & Z, instead it is inclusive to EVERYTHING! The Tantric Path of love, that follows the inward exploration of our true being. I know I was stuck on this for a long time, so I hope this helps anyone who is also in that place where you believe spiritually is going to mean exclusion from life, the truth couldn't be further from that.

Here's one metric the go by- The Absolute sense of Happiness & Peace you feel. By happiness I don't mean some kind of elation or high, like taking drugs. But, simply happy, fulfilled, at peace. Another big 'marker' is your sense of other, if you believe that another exists in any shape or form, then you have work to do In regards to your question- Knowing on a relative level is dualistic- hot / cold etc, but True knowing of Consciousness is beyond duality. It's This. The LOC & other models simply help identify how conscious someone is of themselves, quite literally. Everyone is that, but 99.9% of people have no idea, and believe themselves to be a non-existent separate self.

Shall we also disregard other models such as the 10 Ox Herding Pictures in your opinion? That is quite literally the same thing, just in picture form.

@Blackhawk Do you genuinely believe that? I mean Cigarettes were advertised as healthy until 1992. When you hold all the lobbying power it really isn't that hard to control public perception. I'm far from Anti-Technology, but thinking constant EMFs being blasted at us 24/7 is optimum for health, is slightly delusional. https://www.amazon.com/Radiation-Nation-Technology-Protection-Electromagnetic/dp/0998199605/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=radiation+nation&qid=1606828159&s=books&sr=1-1 It's not a conspiracy, it's just exploitative business practices, they run deep in a deeply Orange society incase you haven't noticed. Admitting they have health consequences = less use = less $$$. Why do you think Tobacco fought for so long to be able to advertise cigarettes as healthy? Also, it's not that hard to reduce & protect yourself against EMFs, for example I bought 'Air Tube' headphones. EMFs / 4G/ 5G are obvs not the cause of every illness going like some would suggest, but they certainly are harmful to the human body, read any non-wireless tech funded study & analysis of research, and you'll see. @Striving for more I would suggest you do some research and find out for yourself, books like the one I linked will help you. In my view, it's very ignorant to say oh yeah of course they are safe, without digging deeper, just as it's hyperbole to say they are going to end the world. There's definite health risks, understand them, and then take the action you deem as helpful.

I agree with @Nahm Convincing sounds very Cult / Religion like. Instead offer food for thought, contemplations to mull over & meditations to realize. For each of us needs to take our own journey, give someone a nudge, then let them dive in when they are ready. Push someone in without their consent, and you risk a lot of backlash.

The world is an illusion is a confusing teaching, I remember the heart wrenching feeling the first time I read that in a Ramana Maharshi book. But, in essence, it simply means All is Self, as that is ALL that exists, therefore, NOTHING can exist outside of that. Personally, saying the 'world is an illusion' , 'it doesn't exist' isn't usually the most helpful way, it depends on the situation. Bringing someone to the understanding that not only is awareness their true being, but Awareness / The Self is the fabric of ALL of reality, will lead to a natural conclusion that 'The World is an illusion' as we normally perceive it, as all EVERYTHING is, is simply The Self. This realization and the realization of 'No Other' tend to go hand in hand, now, that can be a real mind fuck, but a fun one

When you awaken to your true nature & to love & realization of oneness, these questions will mute themselves. A better question to then ask would be- Why would I rape myself? Why would I hurt myself? Love, Love, Love is the answer. Sages don't 10 commandments to act 'Moral' they just act on behalf of the Self. And, those teachers that do abuse students, or act immoral are usually not fully embodied in their own teaching. The realization of 'No Others' is a real hallmark of a deep awakening, as it is simultaneous the realization that the world & everything it is 'made up of' is simply you.

@Myioko To be honest, I wrote this 8 months ago haha so I may not remember exactly what I meant, but, what I am trying to say is that all sentient beings deserve our love and respect. The no hierarchy part is in relation to the absolute, as the Self, we are all one, all the same, neither superior nor less than. This is why Enlightenment is the Ego's greatest disappointment, because it clings to notions of Superior / Worse Than (often nowadays worse than with endless Social Media & Comparisons!) but truth shows us from an absolute standpoint, that is impossible! @neutralempty I agree! I also agree we need more from Vegan nutritionists & doctors etc to help a wider range of people who have different health issues. The consensus for a while in the Vegan community was- Go vegan and ALL your problems will be fixed!!! But, that just isn't true. You can be Vegan and be terribly unhealthy, and if anything a junk food vegan diet is worse than a junk food diet with meat, as you will be deficient in so many ways.

Firstly, this post isn't about health or health benefits of WFPB eating, while I think feeding yourself nutritious foods and drinks is actually a great form of true self-love and constantly eating junk isn't in line with the understanding of junk, that's for another day! This post is regarding the consumption of animals and animal products in relation to the Non-Dual understanding of ALL being The Self/Absolute/ God whatever name you want to give the nameless. Since there is no hierarchy, and Animals are sentient living beings that are literally YOU, does anyone actually have any good arguments for the consumption of meat/ animal products, the only one I can think of is IF you HAVE to eat meat to reach your nutritional needs. Like if you have some form of Legume allergy, or too many plants gives you digestive issues etc I am wanting to hear the other side, as I went vegan 5 years ago to clear up my Acne and after seeing animal slaughter videos, now the primary reason is I don't want to contribute to the suffering and death of living beings IF POSSIBLE, I understand any form of survival will involve forms of exploitation and suffering for other beings, my point is shouldn't we try to minimize that where possible. The majority of fully Self-Realized beings tend to consume and recommend a Vegetarian/ Vegan diet including- Ramana Maharshi, Francis Lucille, Jean Kelin, Rupert Spira and Sadhguru- and plenty of others. Of course it also one of the precepts of Buddhism as well. After a true awakening to the heart, I am not sure why one would want to contribute to this industry if they are conscious of how much suffering and pain it causes living beings. I personally will never eat animal products again, unless I literally HAD to, but 5 years in and I feel healthy still! I am also not looking for absolutist answers such as 'Nothing Matters Anyway' while that is absolutely true, if we take that standpoint into our relative lives we can then say that about anything- someone has slaves 'Oh nothing matters' you watch someone getting beaten up and do nothing because 'Nothing Matters' to me is an incomplete understanding of the teaching, and isn't responding to relative situations from Love and Understanding, it's almost Nothing Matters Absolutely, but we still Act as things matter relatively and when awakening to Love doesn't simply respond to every situation with 'Nothing matters' punch line, instead we respond appropriately to each situation we face ourselves in and from our direct understanding of Truth, Love and Happiness. Anyways, so if anyone actually has some arguments I would like to hear them and discuss them, as I myself couldn't think of any for someone that doesn't need meat to survive or isn't living on the breadline and surviving solely on what they can afford, even then I feel a lot of calories can be made up from Plant Based food. This is not meant to be about morality or ethics (this true understanding actually replaces 'ethics and morals' once the separate self is seen through), more coming from the understanding of Truth and Love, what would be your reasons to kill/slaughter an animal for your pleasure and enjoyment? Also, there will be examples of Buddha and Ramana eating meat on occasion as acceptance, but I mean long term/ regular part of life. (I AM NOT SAYING IT IS A REQUIREMENT FOR AWAKENING/ ENLIGHTENMENT, ANYONE CAN AWAKEN, THIS IS MORE ABOUT EMBODYING AND LIVING THE UNDERSTANDING ESPECIALLY LOVE AND REALIZATION OF THE SELF AS ALL) I look forward to some discussions I thought I'd also list some quotes/ videos from great masters around this subject: Question : What about diet? Ramana Maharshi : Food affects the mind. For the practice of any kind of yoga, vegetarianism is absolutely necessary since it makes the mind more sattvic [pure and harmonious]. Question : Could one receive spiritual illumination while eating flesh foods? Ramana Maharshi : Yes, but abandon them gradually and accustom yourself to sattvic foods. However, once you have attained illumination it will make less difference what you eat, as, on a great fire, it is immaterial what fuel is added. Question : We Europeans are accustomed to a particular diet and a change of diet affects the health and weakens the mind. Is it not necessary to keep up one's physical health? Ramana Maharshi : Quite necessary. The weaker the body the stronger the mind grows. Question : In the absence of our usual diet our health suffers and the mind loses strength. Ramana Maharshi : What do you mean by strength of mind? Question : The power to eliminate worldly attachment. Ramana Maharshi : The quality of food influences the mind. The mind feeds on the food consumed. Question : Really! Then how can Europeans adjust themselves to sattvic food only? Ramana Maharshi : Habit is only adjustment to the environment. It is the mind that matters. The fact is that the mind has been trained to think certain foods tasty and good. The food material is to be had both in vegetarian and non-vegetarian diet equally well. But the mind desires such food as it is accustomed to and considers tasty. Question : Are there restrictions for the realized man with regard to food? Ramana Maharshi : No. He is steady and not influenced by the food he takes. Question: Is it not killing life to prepare meat diet? Ramana Maharshi : Ahimsa [non-violence] stands foremost in the code of discipline for the yogis. Question : Even plants have life. Ramana Maharshi : So too the slabs you sit on! Question : May we gradually get ourselves accustomed to vegetarian food? Ramana Maharshi : Yes. That is the way. Jean Klein- was especially influenced by Gandhi, whose teaching of ahimsa/non-violence led him to become a vegetarian when he was 16. 'True ethics and morality come from the recognition of the underlying unity of all beings and things and is an expression of that understanding in relation to all aspects of our life. It is recommended as a guideline before this understanding to have in place a series of ethics and morals.' This topic goes beyond Veganism/Vegetarianism but that's what brought it up for me, it's more transcending morals and ethics and living the understanding of The Self and Love in all areas of life

@aurum I hope you’re right! You’re right as anyone develop, the inclination to share grows, and the degree of selfishness one has decreases. And, each passing generation is more & more selfless & more developed (hopefully!) so I suspect we will see gradual reforms of the corrupt system. I hope we see the same in areas like- Food, Gambling, Online Shopping, Technology etc, where the toxic aspects (for example top Chinese scientists being paid millions to get more people hooked to slot machines) are gradually weaved out, in favour of my conscious versions of these mediums. There’s nothing wrong with selling nice clothes & shoes if that’s your art form, there’s a lot wrong with knowing someone has spent £1000 this month and using shady tactics & unconsciously persuading them to spend what they can’t afford. But, as you say the key to it all is consciousness development & education. Most the people that work at these places are good people caught in a toxic game!

@Enlightenment I mean, this is just like showing the 90 year old that smokes 30 a day for decades, some people genetically can get away with that, whereas, some can’t, like I know recently a lady who was just 42 died of lung cancer. Same with shitty food, so if Buffet is performing that well on a shitty diet, imagine how well he could be doing??

Not sure if this belongs in the Meditation or Health section, but I feel this can benefit everyone so I'll put it where most people are most active. A lot of westerners neglect their body, even after getting into Spirituality and Non-Duality (some even more so) so I thought I'd come up with this 30 Day Wim Hof Challenge to get people more interested in their health and self-healing. The method is very simple, it is 3-4 rounds of 30-40 deep full breaths, with a gap of 1-2 1/2 minutes of no breathing (go longer if you want to) after every round, usually followed up with a cold shower of 2-5 minutes, but starting at 10 seconds at the end of your normal shower. The 3rd component of the method is Stretching/ Mindfulness/ Meditation which most people here will be familiar with anyways Firstly, anything that helps our lungs and immune systems can't be a bad thing during this Covid-19 outbreak, and secondly, Wim has helped so many people with varying issues from crippling Anxiety to Lyme disease, his courses and retreats of course go more into cold exposure and the method with Ice Baths, snow walks and runs etc. but to start with even this can help so much. What I'm proposing is a 30 Day Challenge of doing this EVERY morning (and night as an optional extra) and then reporting back the results either daily or weekly. The guided YT video has 3 rounds x 30 breaths, in his course, there are 4 rounds x 40 breaths with longer pauses, so practice whichever you prefer. So it would be 30 Days (ideally mornings on an empty stomach he recommends) of the breathing exercise, followed up with a cold shower. Mindfulness/Meditation/Stretching can be done before or after, whenever you normally practice. So far, in the one week it's helped me 1) clear my sinuses 2) Boost my energy HUGLEY 3) Improve focus massively 4) The buzz afterwards is pretty cool too So, here's the video for anyone interested Couple podcasts of Wim

@VeganAwake Absolutely speaking, I agree. But, then relatively, I'm afraid the suffering of those animals & beings being slaughtered and living terrible lives has an impact on them. It is very paradoxical and seems 'dual' on the surface, but surely you see, that in the realization of oneness & love, you would try and minimize the amount of suffering & pain 'your character' causes. For example, ancient sages such as The Buddha, Ramana, Jesus etc weren't exactly unethical were they? Of course, none of us are perfect. Yeah, ultimately, nothing matters, but personally, I think this quote is a better summary of that teaching, from St. Augustine- 'Love and do whatever you want.' I remember speaking deeply on the topic of Ethics & Morals in Non-Duality with @Haumea2018, I'm sure he can help explain it. But, yes, I agree absolutely speaking it doesn't matter at all, Awareness remains pristine either way. I just don't think that absolute stance means we don't try and improve things relatively speaking- Wars, Animal cruelty, poverty, homelessness- the list goes on. @Steve S Yeah, it's kind of crazy to me. Then again, eastern Sages- Ramana, Buddha etc seem more inclined to be vegetarian, it could also be a cultural thing. Here, eating meat is the 'norm', being vegetarian is much more normal in other cultures. To me, it makes sense that your love would extend to all living beings & the Earth itself, since you know yourself to be that. I do understand the health arguments though, like@CultivateLove has explained, I just disagree with Humane slaughter. That's like saying I humanely killed my neighbour, I fed him great food for a few months, then just poisoned him, so went nice and peacefully. To me, it's an oxymoron. But, again, I understand the health concerns as about 2/3 years in I had some minor issues that needed addressing, as I wasn't following a nuanced vegan diet but believed in the fad diets a lot of Vegan youtubers were promoting back then.

True Awakening = Happiness = Love but, probably not the happiness you are thinking of, so it then becomes a semantic issue. This video may help explain it:

@aurum And, you think the bankers & those behind the system who profit billions are going to go down without a long fight? Lot of work ahead of us...

lmao, he just wants to intellectualize Awakening / Non-Duality without any sort of experiential understanding. The fact you think truly awakened beings couldn't be an Engineer is funny, the paradox is, they'd likely be an incredible engineer if they wanted to & actually create things to benefit the System as a whole. Definitely shows several dangers of this work- Wanting to intellectualize everything in life & believing the mind is the master Not being able to conflate absolute & relative truths Going into any endeavor with your 'Cup already full', it means you aren't ready to learn. This isn't just true of spirituality. It's like going to a basketball coach, him telling you how to improve your game & then you saying nah fuck that, gonna carry on how I was as I must be right. Tbf, this Forum isn't ideal for new seekers, as I feel you need a base understanding to gain anything from most discussions. @Leo Gura @Nahm maybe we could create a 'New To Non-Duality / Spirituality Thread' which recommends some of the best books, videos, teachings etc that help new people understand the path? I know you have your booklist & videos, but sometimes so much choice can be overwhelming, perhaps finding the 3 best Beginner books & videos for examples with help people at the start, and will prevent very entry level questions & situations like this. Almost like if you were going to teach someone to Code, you'd expect them to know how to turn on the computer & the basics of technology, you wouldn't want to have to teach them the very, very basicS?

Happiness

@Cosmin_Visan Cool, I have a feeling based on you coming from a more scientific standpoint that you and Rupert might disagree haha. Hope you enjoy, but yeah, you won't get much here, better off reading the works of modern & ancient sages!

This forum is to literally discuss teachings & help people with problems in all domains of life. If you want to understand Non-Duality here's some books / teachers to study- Rupert Spira- Transpraency Of Things Francis Lucille- The Perfume Of Silence Eckhart Tolle- The Power Of Now (Beginner Friendly as well, as very mainstream book) Adyashanti- True Meditation Ananda Devi- Intimacy With The Infinite Robert Wolfe- No Mind No Problem & 1000 - Ramaji You also have the greats like Ramana, Nisgardatta etc but translated works can be hard to interpret, especially for someone new to this work! ANd any books by- Byron Katie, Alan Watts, Osho etc My favorite is Ananda's as it not just explains & articulates the teaching so well, but reads like a novel, detailing her destructive enlightenment story, that goes far beyond the simplicity you currently associate with spirituality, and yes, I am biased as she is my teacher. Why not read a few books, then email these teachers your concerns as they are the 'experts' in this domain? Most people here are still seekers.

@Cosmin_Visan Out of curiosity what are you trying to get out of being on this forum? If you want a better understanding of Non-Duality why don't you just read the books of modern and ancient sages?