Thought Art

So done with planting trees lol this block sucks… The money is very good. But, I need to build out my Qigong business.

@hyruga Share some differences

@hyruga The stages are clearly defined but it’s the application which tends to be messy. People are rarely at a single stage.

@Princess Arabia Admittedly I have errors too and can be held accountable so thank you. I often type with my phone and it’s always changing my words. But, we aren’t looking for perfection. You can capitalize your thread titles. That is not a typo that’s just being careless. Notice how I didn't say "Only perfect grammar allowed". Edits made.

Guys, I am seeing way too many threads with spelling errors and improper capitalization. (admittedly I have lots of errors in my posts) but we can do better with the titles at least.

Can you fix the title “thoughts”

I don't get it. You wanna understand the graph, you read the author... or not. Up to you.

@Carl-Richard These are fair criticisms and point to careful considerations when using the model. These criticisms don't conclusively disprove the model, or turquoise as a stage. Human development likely does go beyond Yellow. So, what would it be if not higher levels of integration and unity? I think that I am interested in Spiral Dynamics as part of Integral Metatheory which draws on many different developmental models in psychology and social sciences. We can see many examples around the world of each stage of the spiral model. It's important to consider the sampling biases, but also to be able to look at real world examples that extend beyond the conception of the model and see if it is still accurate. So, lets consider listing some examples here. I don't think you actually have a conclusive finding that disproves the existence of turquoise at this moment. However, I am willing to listen to your points and take them as I continue to learn about the vast array of human development models. The adoption of mysticism at green and yellow SHOULD affect turquoise as the model states. Just as science does, just as pluralism does, just as systems thinking does, just as everything that the lower stages does. Turquoise would be a Unity of science and mysticism. But, not in a religious way or a way that exists in any of the great traditions. However, again, this isn't my main focus so I need to go and do that now. When we use spiral dynamics along with real world examples, and the vast array of other developmental models we can triangulate an understanding of what the highest levels of human development would be. The methodological pitfalls, or issues of each model may be highlighted or strengthen by looking at different models and real world examples. Spiral Dynamics was conceived on a limited population, but it's application to understanding real world issues and events I think is clear. This conversation I have a feeling may go on for years to come. We can also ask questions like, why are western nations adopting these mystic systems? Is it because we are riding a fad? Are we going backwards? Are we actually developing and expanding our minds to take what is useful from other cultures and it just so happens that these mystic traditions have actual truths which science and western thought lacks? Could it be that as a globe we are unifiying? and to unify cultures must adopt other aspect created in other cultures? Who knows. I consider my understanding of this vast subject rudimentary.

Interesting talk!

Canada and the US are guilty of this too when it came to the natives.

People are asking me some good questions for me to deepen my understanding/ questioning if the model. I will note these questions for now as this model isn’t my main focus at this time. I encourage everyone serious about these models to also take the time to read the books, contemplate with AI, and be willing to see errors or holes where they exist. I also encourage people to allow for new insights and recontextualizations. Does turquoise exist? Isn’t is just yellow? Well, let’s continue to ask this and see without defending anything either way. Cognition exists at each stage, identities exists at each stage, forms of mysticism may exists at most stages… but what are the differences? Why have experts in these fields created these distinctions? Has any stage before Turqoise had a universal/ world centric/ truly unity/integral approach to consciousness? No. Not as far as I understand it. Yellow clearly can have aspects of spirituality and community. So why is it regarded as more rational and individualistic? Could it be that it’s rationality and individualism is a correction of what took place at green as the pendulum swings back and forth, but while including aspects of green? I suspect that Turqoise is unique is that its mysticism included everything where previous stages, even green, did not. Definitely worth looking into. But, my understanding needs more data points. I need more examples of turquoise which are rare, and I need a more solid understanding of the supposed nuances between the cognitive stages. It’s a highly nuanced model which requires and understanding of many fields. No other stage that was mystical has science, systems thinking, and a holistic framework which includes all cognitive stages of the spiral. It’s definitely okay to admit when we are wrong. It’s okay to learn new things about the model on a regular basis. It’s okay to point out errors or questions you have. How each stage interprets reality

That’s why you read Ken Wilbur

You can hire people to remove the nest safely next time. Don’t be hard on yourself.

@Leo Gura We need a Leo Gura AI twin

@Ulax Thanks man.

@Ulax Let me look into it

@Ulax Yellow similar to orange in those ways because it’s a spiral. Each stage up from the previous is on the other side. Orange and yellow are indivualistic and overall rational stages. Green and Turquoise have a level of spirituality and are group oriented. You sort of need to take all of what I said not just pick out one part. Remember that the stages include and transcend the previous stages. You need orange to reach yellow.

@Jannes Did you listen to the account on Leo’s blog?

@Carl-Richard Well, the problems of consciousness, and a more highly integrated and holistic approach to the same systemic issues. Because it goes beyond science and rationality it goes realizes the importance of consciousness. Yellow may focus on solving global issues with policy change, technologies, economic changes etc Turquoise would include those changes while also focusing on shifting and elevating human Consciousness, shifting the mindset of humanity to see the world as a living whole. Seeing it as one. My apologies before with my initial approach . Yellow is rational, scientific, and focused on personal responsibility. Turquoise would be meta rational while including all the aspects developed in earlier spirals, science, logic, etc. Turqoise solves the problem that Yellow doesn’t. Yellow focuses on external rational systems changes while Turquoise realizing that these problems also need a shift to higher levels of consciousness. This is true, lower levels of consciousness down the spiral are in large part the cause of many of the global issues. However, I suspect that survival itself plays a bigger role than spiral dynamics explains.

@Carl-Richard I’ve also read/ reading books on this material as well. AI doesn’t make that many mistakes compared to say, a human like you and I which make a lot as well. It is correct so far comparing it to the book I am reading. But, I want to be open to your perspective, the books I’m reading, the AI, etc. It’s also always improving. i think turquoise is an interesting subject. I think it’s false to conclude that Yellow and Turquoise are the same. I think it. It has raised some questions for me between the higher levels of cognitive development “growing up” and “Waking Up”. This is because turquoise seems to be Holistic compared to Yellow. This seems to be slightly more spiritual. But, reality is spiritual so it makes sense to me. I have to be careful here about proving myself that I am right to you, which doesn’t matter, and my own understanding and contemplation. Hmm, seems that stages beyond Yellow start realizing the importances of consciousness, spirituality, nonduality, unity and meta rationality and the interconnectedness beyond what can be understood with the intellect. I have questions about this. This is a deeper spiritual integration and embodiment of green, and has the systems thinking elements of yellow.

Mountaintops was an important song as part of my artistic healing and recentring but the recording quality, the song itself etc leave me hungry for something better. I’ve got many songs written which I will record and put out as well to keep momentum going. However, I am not satisfied.

Definitely a good contemplation for me. From my outputs and contemplations on chatgpt I can see there are distinctions. But, you can easily ask chatgpt these things yourself.

@Carl-Richard Don’t fake quote me please. In order to get what I said you’d have to actually study the difference between “Waking Up” and “Growing Up”. Non-dual state of consciousness is very different than seeing everyone as one highly Interconnected whole. That’s an understanding that’s not, to me, a far stretch. That’s essentially what systems thinking leads to if you take it to the extreme. The Intro to Systems thinking I read even has a section on it I think. Reality is non-dual and can be intellectually understood as such. It helps when you seek clarity, perhaps the Socratic method instead of putting words in my mouth. Not saying you’d have to agree either. But, it’s sort of rude and sloppy to do that imho. To start with, Spiral Dynamics measures cognitive development not awakening or mysticism. Whether it’s a perfect model or not could be besides the point. If your going to critique it you should first understand what it is

@Carl-Richard Spiral dynamics would be in Ken Wilbur's model part of growing up which is a distinct aspect of the model from waking up/ mysticism. Spiral Dynamics measures psychological and moral development, as well as sphere of concern and identification. Waking up/ mystical experiences/ spirituality, and states would be part of the "waking up" aspects of development. This is not what Spiral Dynamics Measures. Mystical insights and "Waking Up" can happen at any stage of human development "Growing Up". You're level of growing up is like the filter which interprets the waking up experiences. Be careful in blurring different quadrants of growing up, waking up, cleaning up and showing up. Ken Wilbur is not in the business of creating new empirical data, but bringing together into a single tapestry many different models from experts in different fields. Integral Meta Theory helps to organize and map these models. Ken Wilbur provides explanation that mystical experiences happen in all cultures all around the world. The models in his book integral psychology show this well. ---- Chatgpt: Beige: Survival instincts and basic needs. Purple: Tribalistic, magical thinking. Red: Power-driven, egocentric. Blue: Order, tradition, authority. Orange: Achievement, rationality, success. Green: Community, equality, environmentalism. Yellow: Integrative, systems thinking. Turquoise: Holistic, global awareness ---- Turquoise includes Yellow's systems thinking and integrative modelling but move ups to include the entire planet, and all systems seen as a holistic whole. It is non-dual in it's thinking, but not to be confused with non-dual mysticism. Though, People at this stage of develop may also have had awakenings of deep non-duality, but it's not the same thing. Essentially, Yellow is largely reductionistic in it's application of systems thinking compared to Turquoise if I am correct.

ChatGPT told me it can’t access internet