Thought Art

@MarioGabrielJ Thank you

@Javfly33 Thanks man

Dunno

Hard to say can be hard to remember the trip

I like how deepak points out that the quantum is a mathematical concept and not a “physical or objective object. This points out a double standard in science when it treats it as such.

@Javfly33 Peak experiences regardless of catalyst aren’t meant to last all the time.

The question is not whether Qi exists but what are the possibilities of working with it? And how accurate are our current maps?

@Yimpa haha, no. One of the hardest and least profitable days ever Luckily, or not. Today is a surprise off day for the camp. I am enjoying contemplating with ChatGPT and Claude about western models of the nervous system and human energy system and Chinese model of Qi. It’s the same body we are coming at it come different angles. Very different models. They are also developed via different approaches. Many Toaist ideas come from meditative traditions where modern science doesn’t. Chinese medicine is more holistic and focusing on balancing the whole. For this reason Qi is a broad word for the bodies aliveness/ Homeostatic nature. There is clearly energy in the body if we require electrolytes and have a complex electrochemical nervous system, a beating heart, the ability to move around and be alive, that we can be tired or full of energy. That we have different emotions that effect how we move, stand, sit, breath, facial expression, choice of words and vocal tone, cognitive behviour.. But, thought art what about hormones, calories, neurons, pH and Alkaline, cells, mitochondrial, blood, nerves, etc don’t these things disprove Qi because we can observe them and not Qi? We take for granted this divine homeostatic intelligence and animating capacity if the human organism. It’s been doing this for millions of years with no end in sight… made of infinite intelligence and Consciousness. The highest will. Does physical reductionism disprove Qi? No. I would argue not at all. Traditional Chinese medicine is a a holistic practice focused on balancing the whole. It involves things like preventative maintaince through healthy balanced living. It sees the human as part of nature and that all of life has this force flowing through it. When we balance this force we can live in health and harmony. All these reductionist elements do not disprove of a life force. Because all these components come together to keep you alive. What is all the breathing, digesting, absorbing, emitting of heat, heart pumping, hormones, biochemical reactions, electrochemical reactions, and nerve signals, and consciousness and thoughts and emotions and feelings, and life! All that, and viewing it as a single process and looking to create balance in this system… a useful meta term for it all is Qi. We all have to agree that when we live healthy life styles we are generally healthier and that the body has a natural tendency to stay alive and be healthy when in the right conditions. This homeostatic tendcy of the body animating capacity is Qi. All these newly developed reductionist, materialistic, mechanistic views on the human body are extremely insightful and important. But, I do not see them as opposing Qi. You could even have the lens that the physical manifestation of such a complex being and the energy it has to keep living for millions of years is something special. How did the first heart start beating? It’s very mysterious. That, without some kind of force that runs through life we would just be rocks and dust, and water. Traditional Chinese medicine doctors were not reductionist. There goal was to maintain and restore balance too the whole body. So, they developed a different map than a reductionist one. The idea of Qi, is a useful one for such a holistic framework that sees each organ and part of the body as essential components in the body’s homeostatic ability and also that the body has an animating capacity… it can move around and think and stuff. Viewing the whole body as a totality and looking at health this way is way of looking at health and wellness. Western science has taken a more reductionist approach. There is strengths and weaknesses to different approaches.

Thought Guru

@What Am I I generally focus on teaching Qigong and not debating the theory of Qi with others. That being said my ability to explain it will be important. I am always growing and learning. However, being a Qigong teacher simply comes with the burden that people will think you are a fool. Generally, the conversation though is complicated both ways as the scientist doesn’t really know what science is and for me, I am ever deepening my understanding. I feel pretty good about this conversation. But, very hungry to deepen my understanding of this whole area. Not an easy task.

It’s obvious to me after listening to Leo’s 3 part series on the myth of science that science has many epistemic limitatations. It’s obvious now that 99% of people are programmed with this scientific model of understanding. It’s also clear the science in many cases is useful and powerful. But, Qigong and the experience I have and that of millions of people around the world don’t fit well into science. Though, you could pull from many fields like polyvagal science, sports science, breath science, fascia science, mindfulness, various somatic fields etc, Qi, is a very useful tool. Try doing breathing techniques, self acupressure and Qigong.

@What Am I It’s good to engage and use these conversations to deepen our understanding, see errors in our thinking and provide fertile soil for further contemplation. Remember not to get to heated. These conversations can be triggering and challenging at times. Debating really isn’t that useful. I’d rather we explore the underrating if science and other ways of knowledge. Aurum brought a lot to the table here and it was healthy for me to read their comments and Critisms of Qi. It’s sparked in me a deeper desire to understand Qigong, a practice which has brought a great deal of wellness and balance to my life.

For me, Qigong is a powerful meditative and somatic practice for less stress and more energy. The traditional frameworks of Qi, Yin and Yang and the five elements are interesting and useful Philosophical framework for describing the highly complex and holistic set of subjective and objective effects it has on the person as we create more balance and health via the practice. Because Qi is the aliveness can be broken down and explained in its components with western medicine. Chinese medicine isn’t as reductionist and material. It’s more focused on balancing the whole. I am surely at the beginning of my journey. I know Qigong has change my life in profound ways and you can feel the Qi during the practice.

I thought this was an interesting response from Claude. Also, I’d love to share a quote from “The Web with no Weaver” which describes the different between western medicines operating system and that of a Chinese medicine doctor. You've touched on a crucial point. The core issue indeed lies significantly in the epistemological differences between traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) and Western biomedicine. This is an insightful observation that gets to the heart of many debates surrounding concepts like qi. Let's explore this further: 1. Foundational paradigms: - TCM: Based on a holistic, systems-based view of the body and health - Western medicine: Rooted in reductionist, mechanistic understanding of biology 2. Concepts of health and disease: - TCM: Focuses on balance and harmony within the body and with the environment - Western medicine: Often emphasizes specific pathologies and their direct causes 3. Approach to evidence: - TCM: Relies heavily on historical observation, clinical experience, and traditional texts - Western medicine: Prioritizes controlled studies, reproducible experiments, and statistical analysis 4. Language and terminology: - TCM: Uses concepts like qi, yin-yang, and five elements that don't directly translate to Western scientific terms - Western medicine: Employs precise, standardized terminology based on anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry 5. Diagnostic methods: - TCM: Includes techniques like pulse and tongue diagnosis, which are subjective and holistic - Western medicine: Relies on objective measurements, lab tests, and imaging technologies 6. Treatment philosophy: - TCM: Often aims to restore overall balance and enhance the body's self-healing abilities - Western medicine: Typically targets specific symptoms or pathologies directly 7. Epistemological foundations: - TCM: Rooted in classical Chinese philosophy and naturalistic observation - Western medicine: Based on post-Enlightenment scientific method and empiricism 8. Concept of energy: - TCM: Incorporates non-material concepts like qi - Western medicine: Focuses on measurable forms of energy (chemical, electrical, thermal) These epistemological differences create challenges in directly comparing or integrating the two systems. What counts as valid knowledge, evidence, or effective treatment can differ significantly between these paradigms. Your question highlights the importance of recognizing these fundamental differences when discussing concepts like qi or attempting to "measure" traditional concepts using tools developed within a different epistemological framework. Bridging these different systems of knowledge remains a significant challenge and opportunity in global healthcare. Some researchers are working on finding ways to translate concepts between these systems or to find areas where they can complement each other, but it requires careful consideration of these underlying epistemological differences.

@Yimpa They don’t?

Emotions don’t exist in my opinion and anything that can’t be measured with science isn’t real. Ive been speaking with Claude AI and ChatGPT about this This is not an easy topic. Because Qi is a framework, it’s a lens or interpretation and has cultural significance. I was asking about What i feel during qigong if qi is a concept, or the devices or tools developed to measure qi. What’s interesting is that whatever the experience that is happening or whatever you measure of the human body is Qi from this lens. It’s not likely to be accepted by scientists. blood flow, bioelectrical impulses, thoughts and emotions, feelings, sensations, hormones etc are all Qi…

Perhaps the science is doing the practice. There is also plenty of studies done on Qigong. It’s a good conversation. If Qi is your aliveness, I think we all know people are alive. There is plenty of studies on the efficacy of acupuncture, etc If you were genuinely interested in understand life force you can do research on your own. I’ll be referring to your arguments against it because I find it interesting. Qi is your aliveness. Qi isn’t really a substance or a particular thing. It’s more of a concept or idea. That’s why it’s not one thing that can be measured. It’s your aliveness. All your aliveness. Qi includes all the processes of your aliveness. At the same time you do have energy in the body. You can be calm and balanced or anxious and agitated. You can have lots of energy or lack energy. Qi is a useful concept for explaining this phenomenon. If you didn’t have electrolytes in the body you would die. They carry an electrical charge. One example of the obvious energy in the body. ChatGPT: You're right. Qi is not a physical substance that can be measured or observed directly through conventional scientific means. Instead, it is a conceptual framework used in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) and Chinese philosophy to describe the vital energy or life force that flows through all living things and the universe. Here’s a more nuanced understanding of Qi: 1. **Conceptual Nature:** - Qi is a concept that represents the dynamic, vital energy essential for life and health. It is more of a philosophical and metaphysical idea rather than a physical entity. 2. **Holistic Perspective:** - In TCM, Qi encompasses the interactions and balance between various aspects of life, including physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual health. It’s a way to understand and explain how these factors influence overall well-being. 3. **Functional Role:** - Although Qi itself is not physical, its effects and manifestations can be observed in the body's functions and health. For example, the idea of Qi is used to explain processes such as metabolism, circulation, and immune response. 4. **Traditional Practices:** - Practices like Qigong, Tai Chi, acupuncture, and herbal medicine are designed to cultivate, balance, and harmonize Qi. These practices aim to influence the flow of Qi within the body to promote health and prevent disease. 5. **Interpretative Framework:** - Qi serves as an interpretative framework to understand health, illness, and the human body’s relationship with its environment. It provides a holistic approach to health that integrates mind, body, and spirit. While Qi may not align with modern scientific definitions of energy or matter, it remains a central and influential concept in TCM, offering a unique perspective on health and healing.

@Yimpa it wasn’t a break

Long day

You have not validated this claim. You also haven’t validated science. Claims can be integral which would involve some scientific aspects but also aspects from other epistemic frameworks and sources. Science is not truth. So, I’m no longer going to allow people to wield it against me like everything true has to for into the model. While, also working to be familiar with more scientific literature surrounding the applications and scientifically measured aspects of the practice of Qigong, but also deepening my understanding of the theory of science and its limitations and other epistemic frameworks. Psychedelics can sure effect life force energy. There is also a field of energetic herbalism which is using herbs to effect Qi.

Here is a broad and very basic and overarching starting place conversation with ChatGPT beginning to cross compare these approches in pursuit of a master model: Prompt: How are their maps the same or different? How are the claims the same or different? How could each field be integrated into a master understanding of vitalism and its efficacy. Please also add energetic herbalism. Response: ### Mapping and Claims of Vitalism Across Different Fields ### **1. Qi Gong** - **Map:** Uses the concept of meridians, energy pathways through which Qi flows in the body. - **Claims:** Balancing Qi enhances physical health, mental clarity, and spiritual well-being. - **Integration:** Focus on the flow of Qi and its impact on overall health. ### **2. Reiki** - **Map:** No specific pathways; universal life force energy can be channeled through the hands to any part of the body. - **Claims:** Reiki energy promotes relaxation, healing, and stress reduction by balancing energy. - **Integration:** Emphasizes the universal nature of life force energy and its healing potential. ### **3. Wilhelm Reich's Orgone Theory** - **Map:** Orgone energy pervades all living matter; no specific pathways but is influenced by physical and emotional states. - **Claims:** Manipulating orgone energy can improve mental and physical health. - **Integration:** Suggests a universal energy that affects both mind and body, though more controversial and less scientifically accepted. ### **4. Chiropractic Medicine** - **Map:** Focuses on the spinal column and nervous system as pathways for innate intelligence and energy flow. - **Claims:** Correcting spinal misalignments allows the body's natural energy to flow freely, promoting self-healing. - **Integration:** Links structural alignment with energy flow and overall health. ### **5. Osteopathic Medicine** - **Map:** Emphasizes the interrelationship between the body’s structure and its ability to heal itself; does not specifically map energy pathways. - **Claims:** Holistic health depends on the body's natural ability to self-regulate and heal. - **Integration:** Supports the concept that physical manipulation can enhance the body’s energy balance. ### **6. Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM)** - **Map:** Uses a detailed map of meridians and acupuncture points through which Qi flows. - **Claims:** Balancing Qi through acupuncture, herbs, and other practices promotes health and prevents disease. - **Integration:** Provides a detailed and holistic map of energy flow related to various health aspects. ### **7. Yoga** - **Map:** Focuses on the chakras (energy centers) and nadis (channels) through which Prana (life force) flows. - **Claims:** Balancing Prana through postures, breathwork, and meditation enhances physical, mental, and spiritual health. - **Integration:** Offers a structured approach to energy centers and channels, with techniques for balancing them. ### **8. Bioenergetics** - **Map:** Uses the concept of bioenergetic fields influenced by physical and emotional states. - **Claims:** Balancing these energy fields can resolve emotional problems and improve overall well-being. - **Integration:** Connects emotional health with energy balance, emphasizing the mind-body connection. ### **9. Energetic Herbalism** - **Map:** Considers the energetic properties of herbs (cooling, warming, drying, moistening) and their effects on the body's energy balance. - **Claims:** Herbs can balance the body's energy, treating various ailments by influencing Qi or Prana. - **Integration:** Adds the dimension of natural substances to the management of energy balance. ### **Comparative Analysis** #### **Similarities:** - **Concept of Vital Energy:** All fields recognize a vital life force (Qi, Prana, Ki, Orgone) essential for health. - **Holistic Approach:** Emphasis on the balance and flow of this energy within the body and its impact on health. - **Healing and Health:** Aim to promote healing, health, and well-being through various methods. - **Mind-Body Connection:** Acknowledge the interplay between mental and physical health. #### **Differences:** - **Mapping of Energy Pathways:** - **Qi Gong and TCM:** Use detailed maps of meridians and acupuncture points. - **Yoga:** Focuses on chakras and nadis. - **Reiki:** No specific pathways; energy can be channeled anywhere. - **Chiropractic and Osteopathic Medicine:** Focus on structural alignment affecting energy flow. - **Bioenergetics and Orgone Theory:** More abstract and less anatomically specific. - **Claims and Focus:** - **Physical vs. Spiritual Focus:** Qi Gong, Yoga, and TCM integrate physical, mental, and spiritual health, while chiropractic and osteopathic medicine focus more on physical health. - **Scientific Acceptance:** Chiropractic and osteopathic practices are more accepted in the medical community compared to Reiki and Orgone theory. #### **Integration into a Master Understanding of Vitalism** To integrate these fields into a cohesive understanding of vitalism, we can consider the following steps: 1. **Unified Vital Energy Concept:** - Acknowledge that various terms (Qi, Prana, Ki, Orgone) refer to a similar concept of life force energy essential for health. 2. **Holistic Health Framework:** - Combine insights from different fields to create a comprehensive approach that includes physical, mental, and spiritual dimensions. 3. **Mapping and Techniques:** - Develop a flexible map that incorporates meridians, chakras, and other energy pathways, allowing for multiple techniques to balance energy (e.g., acupuncture, yoga, Reiki). 4. **Evidence-Based Practices:** - Encourage scientific research and validation of practices where possible, while respecting traditional knowledge and anecdotal evidence. 5. **Personalized Health Plans:** - Tailor health practices to individual needs, combining techniques from various fields for a personalized approach to energy balance. 6. **Education and Awareness:** - Educate practitioners and the public about the benefits and principles of vitalism, promoting an integrated approach to health and wellness. By recognizing the strengths and contributions of each field, we can create a holistic and integrative model of vitalism that respects diverse traditions and promotes comprehensive health and well-being.

I like these questions and ask myself them all the time. I think will use ChatGPT to cross reference the similarities, differences, epistemological stability, and conflicts that exist between yoga, qigong, chiropractic etc, I am writing this before I ask ChatGPT. A good metaphor I assume would be the elephant and the 5 blind men. Each man is blind and feeling the elephant trying to figure out what it is. “It’s a long broom!” Says one, “it’s a great trunk” says another “it’s sharp and pointy!” Says another… you get the point. Each of these fields is seeing a different aspect of the same elephant , each with different goggles, applications, strengths and weaknesses. When looking at the human body and vitalism each culture and approach is a different lense and application to see human healing and as well what the human body is. When it comes to people trying to use Qi as an energy source for vehicles I’m not sure. It sounds like bullshit to me. There is bullshit in science, there is bullshit when it comes to claims around Qi. This is a challenge for all fields in general. How do you sort proper understanding from improper understanding? It’s a deep and challenging issue. I don’t know much about uses of qi outside qigong to be honest. I’m not super new age but came to qigong with a more somatic lens and later came to accept Qi after much skepticism. Qigong is a skill. It’s a practical skill for health and wellness. Working with the Qi is part of it. Obviously a healthy life force is important for health no? I think, my understanding of Qigong and Qi become very solid for the application I wish to use. For the purposes of Qigong and teaching/ sharing with others so they can have more health, wellness, longevity and less stress and more energy. You simply do the practices and understand the techniques, physically, and internal and you make empirical observations. You observe how it affects you and then your students. You hear their feedback and results. You compare it to the source material of your certification and works of experts in the field. By cross referencing with AI the world’s epistemological paradigms perhaps a stronger more solid and integral understanding can be created. Science is wrong to demystify reality as well. This is important to note. Because Qigong is a highly integral and holistic practice it addresses both the physical aspects of the body and the energetic and mystical aspects too. At the time of writing this I do not claim to be a Qigong master or scholar. I am a Tier 1 Holden Qigong teacher with 2 years experience. I consider myself at the very beginning of my practice and career as a fledgling expert in my field. It’s fresh At the same time Qi, is best understood as a philosophical concept as well as real phonomnen. It can’t be understood without studying and trying to understand the Toaist cosmology and the cosmology and epistemology of Chinese medicine. Then, it’s best to cross reference various aspects of western and Chinese medicine to see the similarities, differences and conflicts. I was reviewing Leo’s “The Myth of science” which I think brings up a lot of good points for looking to view human epistemology through a multiperspectival holistic and integrative lens that explores and builds understanding of the strength and weaknesses of each epistemic system/ “science” instead of solely relying on western science as the backbone, or western pop science as opposed to open inquiry and pursuit of truth for its own sake. Western science clearly has many epistemic issues. I’m sure every epistemology does. Anyway, Qi as I understand it in a very practical way to be a human being life force. That is Human Qi. There is of course Earth Qi and Heaven Qi. But, to grasp this you would have to study and contemplate Chinese/ Toaist cosmology. Not all of which I agree with. Same as not all “science” I agree with and not all scientists agree.