Thought Art

@What Am I I generally focus on teaching Qigong and not debating the theory of Qi with others. That being said my ability to explain it will be important. I am always growing and learning. However, being a Qigong teacher simply comes with the burden that people will think you are a fool. Generally, the conversation though is complicated both ways as the scientist doesn’t really know what science is and for me, I am ever deepening my understanding. I feel pretty good about this conversation. But, very hungry to deepen my understanding of this whole area. Not an easy task.

It’s obvious to me after listening to Leo’s 3 part series on the myth of science that science has many epistemic limitatations. It’s obvious now that 99% of people are programmed with this scientific model of understanding. It’s also clear the science in many cases is useful and powerful. But, Qigong and the experience I have and that of millions of people around the world don’t fit well into science. Though, you could pull from many fields like polyvagal science, sports science, breath science, fascia science, mindfulness, various somatic fields etc, Qi, is a very useful tool. Try doing breathing techniques, self acupressure and Qigong.

@What Am I It’s good to engage and use these conversations to deepen our understanding, see errors in our thinking and provide fertile soil for further contemplation. Remember not to get to heated. These conversations can be triggering and challenging at times. Debating really isn’t that useful. I’d rather we explore the underrating if science and other ways of knowledge. Aurum brought a lot to the table here and it was healthy for me to read their comments and Critisms of Qi. It’s sparked in me a deeper desire to understand Qigong, a practice which has brought a great deal of wellness and balance to my life.

For me, Qigong is a powerful meditative and somatic practice for less stress and more energy. The traditional frameworks of Qi, Yin and Yang and the five elements are interesting and useful Philosophical framework for describing the highly complex and holistic set of subjective and objective effects it has on the person as we create more balance and health via the practice. Because Qi is the aliveness can be broken down and explained in its components with western medicine. Chinese medicine isn’t as reductionist and material. It’s more focused on balancing the whole. I am surely at the beginning of my journey. I know Qigong has change my life in profound ways and you can feel the Qi during the practice.

I thought this was an interesting response from Claude. Also, I’d love to share a quote from “The Web with no Weaver” which describes the different between western medicines operating system and that of a Chinese medicine doctor. You've touched on a crucial point. The core issue indeed lies significantly in the epistemological differences between traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) and Western biomedicine. This is an insightful observation that gets to the heart of many debates surrounding concepts like qi. Let's explore this further: 1. Foundational paradigms: - TCM: Based on a holistic, systems-based view of the body and health - Western medicine: Rooted in reductionist, mechanistic understanding of biology 2. Concepts of health and disease: - TCM: Focuses on balance and harmony within the body and with the environment - Western medicine: Often emphasizes specific pathologies and their direct causes 3. Approach to evidence: - TCM: Relies heavily on historical observation, clinical experience, and traditional texts - Western medicine: Prioritizes controlled studies, reproducible experiments, and statistical analysis 4. Language and terminology: - TCM: Uses concepts like qi, yin-yang, and five elements that don't directly translate to Western scientific terms - Western medicine: Employs precise, standardized terminology based on anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry 5. Diagnostic methods: - TCM: Includes techniques like pulse and tongue diagnosis, which are subjective and holistic - Western medicine: Relies on objective measurements, lab tests, and imaging technologies 6. Treatment philosophy: - TCM: Often aims to restore overall balance and enhance the body's self-healing abilities - Western medicine: Typically targets specific symptoms or pathologies directly 7. Epistemological foundations: - TCM: Rooted in classical Chinese philosophy and naturalistic observation - Western medicine: Based on post-Enlightenment scientific method and empiricism 8. Concept of energy: - TCM: Incorporates non-material concepts like qi - Western medicine: Focuses on measurable forms of energy (chemical, electrical, thermal) These epistemological differences create challenges in directly comparing or integrating the two systems. What counts as valid knowledge, evidence, or effective treatment can differ significantly between these paradigms. Your question highlights the importance of recognizing these fundamental differences when discussing concepts like qi or attempting to "measure" traditional concepts using tools developed within a different epistemological framework. Bridging these different systems of knowledge remains a significant challenge and opportunity in global healthcare. Some researchers are working on finding ways to translate concepts between these systems or to find areas where they can complement each other, but it requires careful consideration of these underlying epistemological differences.

@Yimpa They don’t?

Emotions don’t exist in my opinion and anything that can’t be measured with science isn’t real. Ive been speaking with Claude AI and ChatGPT about this This is not an easy topic. Because Qi is a framework, it’s a lens or interpretation and has cultural significance. I was asking about What i feel during qigong if qi is a concept, or the devices or tools developed to measure qi. What’s interesting is that whatever the experience that is happening or whatever you measure of the human body is Qi from this lens. It’s not likely to be accepted by scientists. blood flow, bioelectrical impulses, thoughts and emotions, feelings, sensations, hormones etc are all Qi…

Perhaps the science is doing the practice. There is also plenty of studies done on Qigong. It’s a good conversation. If Qi is your aliveness, I think we all know people are alive. There is plenty of studies on the efficacy of acupuncture, etc If you were genuinely interested in understand life force you can do research on your own. I’ll be referring to your arguments against it because I find it interesting. Qi is your aliveness. Qi isn’t really a substance or a particular thing. It’s more of a concept or idea. That’s why it’s not one thing that can be measured. It’s your aliveness. All your aliveness. Qi includes all the processes of your aliveness. At the same time you do have energy in the body. You can be calm and balanced or anxious and agitated. You can have lots of energy or lack energy. Qi is a useful concept for explaining this phenomenon. If you didn’t have electrolytes in the body you would die. They carry an electrical charge. One example of the obvious energy in the body. ChatGPT: You're right. Qi is not a physical substance that can be measured or observed directly through conventional scientific means. Instead, it is a conceptual framework used in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) and Chinese philosophy to describe the vital energy or life force that flows through all living things and the universe. Here’s a more nuanced understanding of Qi: 1. **Conceptual Nature:** - Qi is a concept that represents the dynamic, vital energy essential for life and health. It is more of a philosophical and metaphysical idea rather than a physical entity. 2. **Holistic Perspective:** - In TCM, Qi encompasses the interactions and balance between various aspects of life, including physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual health. It’s a way to understand and explain how these factors influence overall well-being. 3. **Functional Role:** - Although Qi itself is not physical, its effects and manifestations can be observed in the body's functions and health. For example, the idea of Qi is used to explain processes such as metabolism, circulation, and immune response. 4. **Traditional Practices:** - Practices like Qigong, Tai Chi, acupuncture, and herbal medicine are designed to cultivate, balance, and harmonize Qi. These practices aim to influence the flow of Qi within the body to promote health and prevent disease. 5. **Interpretative Framework:** - Qi serves as an interpretative framework to understand health, illness, and the human body’s relationship with its environment. It provides a holistic approach to health that integrates mind, body, and spirit. While Qi may not align with modern scientific definitions of energy or matter, it remains a central and influential concept in TCM, offering a unique perspective on health and healing.

@Yimpa it wasn’t a break

Long day

You have not validated this claim. You also haven’t validated science. Claims can be integral which would involve some scientific aspects but also aspects from other epistemic frameworks and sources. Science is not truth. So, I’m no longer going to allow people to wield it against me like everything true has to for into the model. While, also working to be familiar with more scientific literature surrounding the applications and scientifically measured aspects of the practice of Qigong, but also deepening my understanding of the theory of science and its limitations and other epistemic frameworks. Psychedelics can sure effect life force energy. There is also a field of energetic herbalism which is using herbs to effect Qi.

Here is a broad and very basic and overarching starting place conversation with ChatGPT beginning to cross compare these approches in pursuit of a master model: Prompt: How are their maps the same or different? How are the claims the same or different? How could each field be integrated into a master understanding of vitalism and its efficacy. Please also add energetic herbalism. Response: ### Mapping and Claims of Vitalism Across Different Fields ### **1. Qi Gong** - **Map:** Uses the concept of meridians, energy pathways through which Qi flows in the body. - **Claims:** Balancing Qi enhances physical health, mental clarity, and spiritual well-being. - **Integration:** Focus on the flow of Qi and its impact on overall health. ### **2. Reiki** - **Map:** No specific pathways; universal life force energy can be channeled through the hands to any part of the body. - **Claims:** Reiki energy promotes relaxation, healing, and stress reduction by balancing energy. - **Integration:** Emphasizes the universal nature of life force energy and its healing potential. ### **3. Wilhelm Reich's Orgone Theory** - **Map:** Orgone energy pervades all living matter; no specific pathways but is influenced by physical and emotional states. - **Claims:** Manipulating orgone energy can improve mental and physical health. - **Integration:** Suggests a universal energy that affects both mind and body, though more controversial and less scientifically accepted. ### **4. Chiropractic Medicine** - **Map:** Focuses on the spinal column and nervous system as pathways for innate intelligence and energy flow. - **Claims:** Correcting spinal misalignments allows the body's natural energy to flow freely, promoting self-healing. - **Integration:** Links structural alignment with energy flow and overall health. ### **5. Osteopathic Medicine** - **Map:** Emphasizes the interrelationship between the body’s structure and its ability to heal itself; does not specifically map energy pathways. - **Claims:** Holistic health depends on the body's natural ability to self-regulate and heal. - **Integration:** Supports the concept that physical manipulation can enhance the body’s energy balance. ### **6. Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM)** - **Map:** Uses a detailed map of meridians and acupuncture points through which Qi flows. - **Claims:** Balancing Qi through acupuncture, herbs, and other practices promotes health and prevents disease. - **Integration:** Provides a detailed and holistic map of energy flow related to various health aspects. ### **7. Yoga** - **Map:** Focuses on the chakras (energy centers) and nadis (channels) through which Prana (life force) flows. - **Claims:** Balancing Prana through postures, breathwork, and meditation enhances physical, mental, and spiritual health. - **Integration:** Offers a structured approach to energy centers and channels, with techniques for balancing them. ### **8. Bioenergetics** - **Map:** Uses the concept of bioenergetic fields influenced by physical and emotional states. - **Claims:** Balancing these energy fields can resolve emotional problems and improve overall well-being. - **Integration:** Connects emotional health with energy balance, emphasizing the mind-body connection. ### **9. Energetic Herbalism** - **Map:** Considers the energetic properties of herbs (cooling, warming, drying, moistening) and their effects on the body's energy balance. - **Claims:** Herbs can balance the body's energy, treating various ailments by influencing Qi or Prana. - **Integration:** Adds the dimension of natural substances to the management of energy balance. ### **Comparative Analysis** #### **Similarities:** - **Concept of Vital Energy:** All fields recognize a vital life force (Qi, Prana, Ki, Orgone) essential for health. - **Holistic Approach:** Emphasis on the balance and flow of this energy within the body and its impact on health. - **Healing and Health:** Aim to promote healing, health, and well-being through various methods. - **Mind-Body Connection:** Acknowledge the interplay between mental and physical health. #### **Differences:** - **Mapping of Energy Pathways:** - **Qi Gong and TCM:** Use detailed maps of meridians and acupuncture points. - **Yoga:** Focuses on chakras and nadis. - **Reiki:** No specific pathways; energy can be channeled anywhere. - **Chiropractic and Osteopathic Medicine:** Focus on structural alignment affecting energy flow. - **Bioenergetics and Orgone Theory:** More abstract and less anatomically specific. - **Claims and Focus:** - **Physical vs. Spiritual Focus:** Qi Gong, Yoga, and TCM integrate physical, mental, and spiritual health, while chiropractic and osteopathic medicine focus more on physical health. - **Scientific Acceptance:** Chiropractic and osteopathic practices are more accepted in the medical community compared to Reiki and Orgone theory. #### **Integration into a Master Understanding of Vitalism** To integrate these fields into a cohesive understanding of vitalism, we can consider the following steps: 1. **Unified Vital Energy Concept:** - Acknowledge that various terms (Qi, Prana, Ki, Orgone) refer to a similar concept of life force energy essential for health. 2. **Holistic Health Framework:** - Combine insights from different fields to create a comprehensive approach that includes physical, mental, and spiritual dimensions. 3. **Mapping and Techniques:** - Develop a flexible map that incorporates meridians, chakras, and other energy pathways, allowing for multiple techniques to balance energy (e.g., acupuncture, yoga, Reiki). 4. **Evidence-Based Practices:** - Encourage scientific research and validation of practices where possible, while respecting traditional knowledge and anecdotal evidence. 5. **Personalized Health Plans:** - Tailor health practices to individual needs, combining techniques from various fields for a personalized approach to energy balance. 6. **Education and Awareness:** - Educate practitioners and the public about the benefits and principles of vitalism, promoting an integrated approach to health and wellness. By recognizing the strengths and contributions of each field, we can create a holistic and integrative model of vitalism that respects diverse traditions and promotes comprehensive health and well-being.

I like these questions and ask myself them all the time. I think will use ChatGPT to cross reference the similarities, differences, epistemological stability, and conflicts that exist between yoga, qigong, chiropractic etc, I am writing this before I ask ChatGPT. A good metaphor I assume would be the elephant and the 5 blind men. Each man is blind and feeling the elephant trying to figure out what it is. “It’s a long broom!” Says one, “it’s a great trunk” says another “it’s sharp and pointy!” Says another… you get the point. Each of these fields is seeing a different aspect of the same elephant , each with different goggles, applications, strengths and weaknesses. When looking at the human body and vitalism each culture and approach is a different lense and application to see human healing and as well what the human body is. When it comes to people trying to use Qi as an energy source for vehicles I’m not sure. It sounds like bullshit to me. There is bullshit in science, there is bullshit when it comes to claims around Qi. This is a challenge for all fields in general. How do you sort proper understanding from improper understanding? It’s a deep and challenging issue. I don’t know much about uses of qi outside qigong to be honest. I’m not super new age but came to qigong with a more somatic lens and later came to accept Qi after much skepticism. Qigong is a skill. It’s a practical skill for health and wellness. Working with the Qi is part of it. Obviously a healthy life force is important for health no? I think, my understanding of Qigong and Qi become very solid for the application I wish to use. For the purposes of Qigong and teaching/ sharing with others so they can have more health, wellness, longevity and less stress and more energy. You simply do the practices and understand the techniques, physically, and internal and you make empirical observations. You observe how it affects you and then your students. You hear their feedback and results. You compare it to the source material of your certification and works of experts in the field. By cross referencing with AI the world’s epistemological paradigms perhaps a stronger more solid and integral understanding can be created. Science is wrong to demystify reality as well. This is important to note. Because Qigong is a highly integral and holistic practice it addresses both the physical aspects of the body and the energetic and mystical aspects too. At the time of writing this I do not claim to be a Qigong master or scholar. I am a Tier 1 Holden Qigong teacher with 2 years experience. I consider myself at the very beginning of my practice and career as a fledgling expert in my field. It’s fresh At the same time Qi, is best understood as a philosophical concept as well as real phonomnen. It can’t be understood without studying and trying to understand the Toaist cosmology and the cosmology and epistemology of Chinese medicine. Then, it’s best to cross reference various aspects of western and Chinese medicine to see the similarities, differences and conflicts. I was reviewing Leo’s “The Myth of science” which I think brings up a lot of good points for looking to view human epistemology through a multiperspectival holistic and integrative lens that explores and builds understanding of the strength and weaknesses of each epistemic system/ “science” instead of solely relying on western science as the backbone, or western pop science as opposed to open inquiry and pursuit of truth for its own sake. Western science clearly has many epistemic issues. I’m sure every epistemology does. Anyway, Qi as I understand it in a very practical way to be a human being life force. That is Human Qi. There is of course Earth Qi and Heaven Qi. But, to grasp this you would have to study and contemplate Chinese/ Toaist cosmology. Not all of which I agree with. Same as not all “science” I agree with and not all scientists agree.

@kamill I’ve had that too. Especially the first time I did a guided session. Not sure what advice here is

I am becoming more strict about nutrition, sleep and personal finance. I see lots of growth in these areas but I have higher vision still

@What Am I nah, I was having fun. It’s easy to be right and wrong. I definitely went into questioning myself more deeply mode. Wanting to use AI as an impartial 3rd party. I’ll be improving my foundation and collection of resources. Qi and Qigong is a complicated subject and I will improve my ability to advocate for its efficacy while also being honest with any issues.

I asked the Consensus ChatGPT if Qigong was a scam. Here is the convo. I love Qigong and look forward to continue research and the growing body of research. There do appear to be methodological challenges for proving the efficacy of qigong claims. Which makes sense. When it comes to Qi and Qigong we are at a point of paradigm differences , methodological considerations such as use of or controlling for placebo effect, subjective issues, problems, biases, limitations. Challenge, etc. Burden of proof, epistemological a structure, world view, values, a persons ability to ask powerful questions and look at health and the human body from many lenses. https://chatgpt.com/share/87125b3d-239d-4d4b-baab-360aa8443620

I decided to ask if I was stupid or not a credible source because I was wrong about the Lee Holden NASA thing. Actually first I asked if it was true and ChatGPT was also fooled. So I started asking about how we could be fooled and how to know if anything is true and how to approach learning responsibly. https://chatgpt.com/share/e9068fa3-ff73-4da5-a93a-91e1f5ff2dca

I asked ChatGPT how it basis it’s opinions on Qigong. It is by no means comprehensive: The health claims regarding Qigong are based on a combination of traditional knowledge, anecdotal evidence, and scientific research. Here are some of the sources and types of evidence that support these claims: ### Scientific Research on Qigong 1. **Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analyses**: - There have been several systematic reviews and meta-analyses that summarize the effects of Qigong on various health outcomes. For instance, a systematic review published in the *American Journal of Health Promotion* concluded that Qigong has beneficial effects on hypertension, pain management, and overall quality of life . 2. **Clinical Trials**: - Numerous clinical trials have investigated the effects of Qigong on specific health conditions. For example, a study published in the *Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine* found that Qigong practice significantly improved physical function and reduced symptoms of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) . - Another randomized controlled trial published in the *Journal of Clinical Rheumatology* demonstrated that Qigong practice resulted in significant pain reduction and improved physical functioning in patients with fibromyalgia . 3. **Physiological Studies**: - Studies have examined the physiological mechanisms underlying the effects of Qigong. For example, research published in the *International Journal of Behavioral Medicine* found that Qigong practice was associated with reduced stress levels, improved heart rate variability, and enhanced immune function . ### Traditional Knowledge and Anecdotal Evidence 1. **Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM)**: - Qigong has been an integral part of TCM for centuries, with a rich history of anecdotal evidence supporting its health benefits. Practitioners of TCM have long used Qigong to promote balance, enhance energy flow (Qi), and improve overall health. 2. **Practitioner Testimonials**: - Many individuals who practice Qigong report significant improvements in their physical and mental health. These testimonials, while anecdotal, provide valuable insights into the potential benefits of Qigong. ### Examples of Studies 1. **Hypertension and Cardiovascular Health**: - A meta-analysis published in the *Journal of Hypertension* reviewed multiple studies and concluded that Qigong practice significantly lowers blood pressure in individuals with hypertension . 2. **Mental Health and Stress Reduction**: - Research published in the *Journal of Psychiatric Research* indicated that Qigong practice can reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression, and enhance overall psychological well-being . 3. **Balance and Fall Prevention**: - A study published in the *Archives of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation* found that older adults practicing Qigong showed improved balance and a reduced risk of falls . ### Summary While the scientific evidence supporting Qigong is growing, it is important to recognize that not all studies are of the same quality, and further research is needed to fully understand the mechanisms and long-term effects of Qigong practice. However, the existing body of research, combined with traditional knowledge and anecdotal evidence, suggests that Qigong can be a beneficial health practice for many individuals. If you're interested in exploring the health benefits of Qigong, it's always a good idea to review the scientific literature, consult with healthcare professionals, and try the practice yourself to see how it impacts your well-being. --- **References:** 1. Hartley, L., et al. (2012). "Qigong for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease." *Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews*, (11). 2. Lee, M. S., et al. (2007). "Qigong for hypertension: a systematic review of randomized clinical trials." *Journal of Hypertension*, 25(8), 1525-1532. 3. Ng, B. H., et al. (2011). "The effectiveness of Qigong for COPD patients

I then asked: Given your body of knowledge is Qigong a healthy or practical health practice and is Qi a real thing? It said: Qigong is widely regarded as a beneficial health practice by many practitioners and has shown positive outcomes in several studies. Whether Qi itself is considered "real" depends on the perspective one takes—scientific, experiential, or cultural. ### Health Benefits of Qigong **Scientific Evidence:** 1. **Physical Health**: Numerous studies have shown that Qigong can improve physical health. Benefits include enhanced mobility, reduced pain, improved cardiovascular function, and better balance, which helps in fall prevention, especially in older adults. 2. **Mental Health**: Qigong has been associated with reduced stress, improved mood, better sleep, and enhanced overall well-being. Practices involving mindfulness and meditation elements contribute significantly to mental health. 3. **Immune Function**: Some research indicates that Qigong practice can boost immune function, potentially leading to better resistance to illnesses. **Mechanisms:** - The slow, deliberate movements of Qigong can improve circulation and enhance the flow of bodily fluids. - Deep breathing and relaxation techniques can lower stress hormones and promote a state of calm and mental clarity. - Regular practice can improve proprioception and coordination, contributing to physical balance and strength. ### The Concept of Qi **Cultural and Experiential Perspective:** - Qi is deeply embedded in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) and philosophy, representing the vital life force that flows through all living things. - Many practitioners and cultures have experienced and described Qi in terms of its effects on health and well-being, often through practices like Qigong, acupuncture, and Tai Chi. **Scientific Perspective:** - From a Western scientific standpoint, Qi is not easily measurable or observable through conventional scientific methods. The concept of Qi may be seen as a metaphor for various physiological processes that contribute to health and vitality. - While the direct existence of Qi as described in TCM is not universally accepted in the scientific community, the benefits of practices associated with it are well-documented and acknowledged. ### Conclusion **Qigong as a Health Practice:** - **Healthy**: Yes, Qigong is considered a healthy practice. It can improve physical fitness, mental health, and overall well-being. - **Practical**: Yes, Qigong is practical. It is accessible, low-impact, and can be practiced by individuals of all ages and fitness levels. **Qi as a Real Thing:** - **Cultural and Experiential Reality**: Qi is real in the context of traditional Chinese culture and the experiences of practitioners. It provides a useful framework for understanding and practicing holistic health. - **Scientific Reality**: Qi, as traditionally described, lacks direct empirical evidence. However, the physiological and psychological benefits associated with practices involving Qi are recognized and studied. Ultimately, Qigong's value lies in its ability to promote health and well-being, whether one views Qi as a literal life force or a useful metaphor for the interconnectedness of bodily functions. Embracing a holistic approach that combines traditional wisdom with scientific inquiry can lead to a more comprehensive understanding of health.

I showed ChatGPT some of the images of our conversation and asked this: What do you think of this conversation so far? Who is wrong who is right? What points should each side see that could be useful in understanding if Qigong and the idea of Qi is a scientifically, or epistemologically truthful way of seeing a health practice and the human body? and it said: In the conversation depicted in the images, the discussion revolves around the nature of Qi, its perception in traditional Chinese medicine, and its acceptance (or lack thereof) in Western scientific paradigms. ### Key Points from Both Sides: #### Pro-Qi Perspective: 1. **Existence of Qi**: Qi is described as the vital energy that is fundamental to life. It's suggested that just as we know emotions exist despite not being able to measure them, Qi exists as the energy that keeps the body alive and functioning. 2. **Empirical Observations**: The proponent of Qi references empirical observations from Qigong practice, such as improved mobility, reduced pain, and enhanced immunity, which are attributed to the activation and balancing of Qi. 3. **Conceptual Understanding**: There is a suggestion that Qi represents an organizing principle or energy in the body that Western science has not yet fully understood or accepted. The argument implies that Western science might dismiss Qi because it doesn't fit into its existing paradigms and methodologies. #### Skeptical Perspective: 1. **Scientific Validity**: The skeptic challenges the notion of Qi by questioning its scientific basis. They suggest that phenomena attributed to Qi could be explained by more conventional biological processes, such as blood flow or warmth from physical activity. 2. **Measurability and Reproducibility**: A key point raised is the need for Qi to be measurable and its effects reproducible to be considered scientifically valid. The skeptic points out that without these qualities, Qi remains a subjective or anecdotal concept rather than a scientifically proven phenomenon. 3. **Epistemological Differences**: The skeptic acknowledges the epistemological differences between traditional Chinese medicine and Western science. They argue that the lack of scientific proof for Qi does not necessarily negate its practical benefits but highlights the differing methodologies and paradigms. ### Who is Right and Who is Wrong? The debate is not strictly about right or wrong but about different perspectives and understandings: - **Pro-Qi Perspective**: This viewpoint holds value in its recognition of empirical benefits observed through practices like Qigong. The emphasis on the holistic and experiential understanding of health aligns with many individuals' personal experiences and traditional practices. - **Skeptical Perspective**: This stance is valid in its demand for scientific rigor and empirical evidence. The need for measurability and reproducibility is crucial for any concept to be universally accepted in the scientific community. ### Points for Mutual Understanding: 1. **Integration of Perspectives**: Both sides can benefit from a more integrated approach. Western science can explore ways to study and measure the effects of practices like Qigong, while proponents of Qi can seek to articulate their observations in ways that align with scientific methods. 2. **Complementary Health Practices**: Acknowledging that traditional practices can complement conventional medicine might foster a more holistic approach to health. Scientific investigation into the mechanisms behind Qigong's benefits could provide insights that bridge the gap between the two paradigms. 3. **Openness to Paradigm Shifts**: Both perspectives could benefit from being open to paradigm shifts. Western science has evolved to include concepts once deemed unscientific, and traditional practices have adapted over time. Dialogue and research can facilitate a mutual understanding and respect for different health paradigms. In summary, the conversation reflects a broader dialogue about integrating traditional knowledge with modern scientific understanding. Both perspectives offer valuable insights, and a balanced approach can enhance the understanding and practice of health and wellness.

@Yimpa No the claim that Lee worked with NASA was! Totally got me. I will always admit when I am wrong. Or when I don’t know. When it comes to the ultimate truth around health sciences I don’t claim to know it. I am always learning. The Qigong I teach is very basic. It’s all about relaxation, mobility, etc. Based on simple principles of mindfulness, breathing, stretching, warming up, flowing, meditation, etc I get positive comments everyday. People seem to love it. So, maybe we are just all idiots who like to stretch and breath and self massage, and move in fun and interesting ways while openingly and curiously feel what is there…developing a deep and nourishing relationship with our muscles, tendons, organs, thoughts, emotions, mental operating system, cognitive behaviour, breathing patterns, ability to feel and observe thoughts and emotions, ability to let go of stress, tension, anger and to cultivate the feelings of happiness, joy, groundedness, compassion, etc This conversation will push me towards deepening my understanding, organization of sources, collection of sources, and ability to explain, and more deeply and thoroughly study this material and to continue to practice and explore the art that has already made such a great change in how I feel every single day.

Thank you for this conversation.

@aurum Thanks for pointing out that the article was an April fools Joke. When it came to that particular claim I admit I was wrong. Lee did not work with NASA. I am upset that Holden Qigong put out this article. However, Holden Qigong is awesome. I am open to admitting where it’s right, where it is wrong and what its strengths and weaknesses are. The goal is to create authentic health and well-being. This for me requires being open to being wrong, being open minded, and building an adequate model and understanding of the world. There is a signal to noise ratio in my understanding of reality. I will admit the points where I am wrong, and where I am right. I will contemplate many sources.. This does not mean Qi isn’t real or that Qigong not a useful health practice. Qi is just your aliveness. Your often ignoring i think the explainations provided as to what it is. You are live, and there is an energy in your body. Qigong is simple exercises to work with the aliveness of the body. There are different types of Qi: Prenatal Qi, the aliveness that you were given when born. Ask yourself what is the different between an above body and a dead body? You were born with the aliveness energy. That’s why you are alive. The candle was passed in by your mother. Nutrient Qi that you get from food… perhaps explain as calories and mutations that allow the body to live. There is also what is called gathering Qi. Which is essential the repository and circulatory system. There are many lenses and classifications of Qi. So, Qi is your aliveness. Qi is the aliveness that was created through your conception. Qi is energy from food you get. Qi is the energy from breathing, etc Qi is your aliveness Qigong is to work with that energy. I suggest you take time to review the scientific reports on Qigong before making claims of their efficacy but also to actually try the experience. I am always learning and developing. This practice changed my life forever.

When is comes to Qigong there is a lot of consistency through the schools. For example, Qigong, acupressure, acupuncture, shiatsu all use the same maps and models and understanding. Also modern sciences is measuring the efficacy of these practices and the results are very positive. I do believe there are some devices now developed for measuring it as well. We know deep breathing is good for us, we know exercise is good for us, we know relaxation is good for us, we know stretching is good for us, we know meditation is good for us, etc However, how can you measure an emotion, a thought or a feeling? Can you see them in a brain? No.but you can feel is and observe it. That is why is an inner art. You can measure physiological triggers of this however. A lot of Qigong is a subjective science. A lot of Qigong is also energetic and physiological. You can tell when you feel more relaxed, that you are more grounded, balanced and focused through the practice. You can also feel the Qi. It’s often a buzzing, tingling and energetic feeling. Qigong has ancient roots but the word Qigong came into use only in the 1940s as it was looked at by Chinese scientists to use for improving health and well-being removing a lot of the mystical and religious aspects of it. The Chinese have known about this for thousands of years. Western science isn’t the only paradigm.