skywords

@Serotoninluv I'd have to go with flafdz being better than vytqub. Not actually trying to annoy you, Serotoninluv, it's just that I don't actually believe that an open mind, and an open heart need to label things as "nonsensical distractions." This is actually an important point, IMO. What I'm advocating is an approach that is ppl centered, rather than "it" centered, whether "it" happens to be "truth," or "logic," or "enlightenment." A ppl centered approach tries to avoid put downs. Alternatively, it shrugs them off, or makes light of them, for me, from my personal pov. What it does do is find the sense, in anything and everything. That's why meditation, for example, on one's own hand, for an exceptionally extended period of time, can be extremely powerful. It's a suspension of demonization, of disbelief, of denigration, of assuming that something needs to be cast off simply because it doesn't serve one's immediate goals. Leo advocates this no end, and I agree with that sentiment. However, what I would suggest to you, and to Leo, if either of you were to display some, even moderate initial interest, is that this suspension of disengagement or dismissal, can always be integrated into increasingly deeper, wider and higher experiences into the whole of one's life. Hope I'm not making too much nonsense. I would appreciate your indulgence. Thank you for your feedback. I hope I've made good use of it. For me, one aspect of "enlightenment" is a movement toward infinite empathy. I can definitely see your pov. I have no objection to it. I'm just explaining myself as best I can, in this moment.

@Bill W Yeah. I've been doing it for decades now. It's super important that there be an agreement, before hand, as to what, exactly, it means. Such as, stipulating that it's a meditation. If you try it with the wrong person in a bar, it could end with a fight, or with having to explain to a lady that you weren't necessarily thinking about sex. But it has become a movement, with large groups of ppl, especially in large cities, doing it in mass, or in meetups across the world. If you're interested, there's a lot about it both online and on YouTube.

@Serotoninluv It's good that you can make the best of nonsense. I appreciate your contribution.

@outlandish I'd go with purple bananas. How about you? Eye gazing while doing 5meodmt.

Lover or fighter? Nervous wreck, conservative workaholic or couch potato slacker, laid back hippy? How about a graceful relationship between these opposites? How about just grace itself, as both return and arrival, both rivalry and cooperation, and neither one nor the other ~ but the sheer turning, the way of turning, the process itself as "truth," the process itself as Grace? "It's not the meat, it's the motion." Here's a beautiful elaboration of the dilemma, if you will allow. Notice how many times he uses the words, "dance," and "polarity":

@Ero Where, exactly?

My Latest Poem: Turn ~ Turn ~ Turn Always Return To The Heart Of Grace ? ? ? This Is What You Are ?‍♀️ This Is ~ What You Have Always Been ~ ? ? ? And THEN I saw this fellow, who agrees with me that GRACE is what I/We/It/All IS. (Whereas Leo might have busted me for being too goofy! This guy is, IMO, quite an embodiment of BOTH Grace And "Disgrace."

@Leo Gura I'd like to suggest that it actually works both ways, when one's Default Paradigm is not one of "True/False," but of "Graceful/Less Graceful." If, and when, one's Default Paradigm is "Grace," then all "direct experience" is one of Harmonious Relationship of Self As Dancing With Other. In Dance, neither partner comes "prior" to the other partner. Hierarchy might be less graceful than egalitarianism. It appears to me as though you are privileging one thing over another, when you suggest than one thing can precede another. I prefer the perspective that the NOW can be, generally speaking, experienced most authentically, as the place of greatest grace, not as a separate state, but as relationship itself. In the full engagement of Nowness, nothing comes "before" anything else, because everything is present, including past and future, and there is no before or after, rather, there is an endless and beginningless dance of infinite beauty, love and empathy. I absolutely subscribe, and adamantly so, to most, if not all, of your insights. However, I might have reached an insight that you may eventually reach, which is that it is not merely that the "self" is both nothing and everything. But also, furthermore, that nothing is in graceful Relationship to everything. It is not only that God is Devil, self is God, as well as Devil, that everything, and it's opposite, coexist ~ but that another most enlightened experience is that of Grace is the Harmonious Relationship of opposites, to each other, as they dance, both gracefully and disgracefully, both in the Big Bang of Nowness. It bears repetition, I believe, that almost all your insights are valid to me, but that you might reach a stage ~ and Everything is an ongoing stage, I hope that's obvious ~ But you just might reach a state (not in the future as future, but in the present future) where you experience self not just as other, not just as both everything and nothing, but when the most important insight is that it is their ongoing flow into and out of each other, that is the most gracefully gratifying locus. As you say, the enlightened one radiates unconditional love. And I'm suggesting that this unconditional love flows and interweaves with a ground of being, and/also, a groundlessness of being/non being, which manifests as pure and infinite empathy. "Empathy" might be experienced as a more evolved or, loving, say, form of love, because it relates more tenderly, warmly, compassionately, as self loving one's neighbor as oneself (self as other), and both self/other as God. God dancing harmoniously as Self, as Other, In The Eternal Now (where there is no beforeness, nor afterness). Just a suggestion. If it doesn't feel graceful, harmonious, respectful, honoring, then I wouldn't necessarily adopt it. But it just might be a mustard seed, to flourish at some stage yet to manifest in this Eternal Now, yet manifesting in this Now. BTW, I too, experienced culture shock, having arrived in the US, at age 7, from a third world country. I believe our thorough, global, cultural, intellectual and spiritual "reset," has quite a bit to do with this culture shock, as well as our atheistic, science oriented parents (my mother was a Jewish intellectual, my father a university professor, also a rageaholic). We have other similarities that would culturally predispose us to intense inner/outer inquiry for its own sake, and a love of the "mindfuck," as you aptly put it. But I'd like to suggest that a more authentic way of "returning to source of being" involves a deep serenity predicated not on the violence of stark images, like "false self," and "self deception," but rather, a more empathic perspective, employing such words as, "gentler self regard," and more compassionate and recognizable sharing of authenticity (vs "lies"). Particularly as Relationship. Not as syllogism, which IS a useful sounding board, dialectical moment in the dance, but as interconnectedness, "interweaving" (an etymological root word of) Tantra, if you will. BTW, did you know that Hegel, the father of idealistic dialectics, and the so called, "philosopher par excellence," may have studied Hindu - Tantric, scripture? We both know he was a pantheist (although he is "said" to have denied it, as a practicing Christian, in his later years. But I think he gracefully weaved his pantheism in with his Christianity). And, of course, I am here suggesting a "more integrated" pantheism that replaces the compartmentalization of "before/after," "true/false" with the harmonious interdependence of "true becomes false and false becomes true, in the full and all present engagement of graceful and infinite empathy." Something like that, anyway.. I hope you look upon this with indulgent sympathy, if at all, rather than brusque dismissal, if you would be so kind? Either of which, I grant you, might or might not seem appropriate, given the vicissitude of context..

@Bill W Thank you! You are very kind !!

@Nahm Yeah, in a perpetual and infinitely varying flow..

@Amandine No, I can't. It sounds way too cryptic to me, as well.

@MAYA EL Oh, I was just playing with these words you used: "that Leo has made and I fear that any more information and there heads may start to pop," You know, as if there were some catastrophe imminent, somehow. Right?

@Bill W Mark me down as +1, so that you're left with 2 - 2 ! "Stay sanguine, either way," that's my encouragement, for what it may or may not be worth!

(By Which I Mean Things He Might Never Have Thoroughly Examined, Contemplated Upon And Meditated In . . . ? Just sayin . . . ) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ~ ? "Enlightenment" ? ~ As Effortless ? Grace ? ? & ? ~ Effort ? As Disparaging ? ~ ? Words ☠️ ~ 0 ~ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

@Bill W @TrynaBeTurquoise For me, "enlightenment," means that ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING IS BOTH TRUE AND FALSE. And FURTHER, that these are merely colors, along an infinite spectrum of possibilities, ALL OF WHICH FLOW in and out of each other In This Now Moment. So, if you think I'm "wrong," I agree: absolutely. But I also disagree. Both, and much much more. But, if what I'm typing here seems idiotic and nonsensical, I also agree/disagree. For me, the "truth" is pure communication. And even if youall think we're not communicating, my experience is that we are. Even if we're communicating that we're not communicating. Youall might say that my statements make no sense, are futile and inappropriate, and I will still experience that as communication. For me, communication of ANY kind whatsoever is what "enlightenment" celebrates. So, yeah! For me, beyond the dualities of "true/false," "belief/experience," "should be in this forum/shouldn't be in this forum," "read me/can't read me," are all part of the BEAUTIFULLY INFINITE FLOW OF FLOW that I DO believe WOULD be a "mindfuck," possibly, possibly, to Leo and to maybe some, in this forum. I don't know. I don't care to know. I only care to flow. That is, to observe that there is everything as flow, and to enjoy it All.

@TrynaBeTurquoise The distinction "True/False," is absolutely a mere belief, too, right? Even the belief that there is "distinction," is itself a belief, as is "belief in belief." NO game being played, here, either! Right? Just wanna make sure. I think you agree, but just checking.

@Ero That is a very good point, Ero, I'm glad you brought it up! Here's the method to my madness: I experience the beauty of this, Leo's forum, as AUTHENTIC INTERCHANGE, that is, DANCE ~ But, unfortunately, I DO believe the PREVAILING PARADIGM, is, nevertheless, NOT one of flowing interaction, but one of STASIS, or STATIC "this is what is." And not, "this is flowing into this." So, I'm trying to show how this is the missing link. I believe this missing link would dramatically help people get "enlightened" faster. Because instead of asking themselves, "what am I"? They would ask, "what is my experience of grace?" And I'm not saying that I'm "right," because I don't use that metaphor. The metaphor I'm using instead, the one I'm privileging, is "grace." Or, "flow," or "dance," or "change," as "Truth." So, for example, instead of asking oneself, "is this in a state of 'rightness' or 'wrongness'?," one would ask, "what is this changing from and into," and most importantly, "how do I participate, empathize, with this ongoing, changing, now?" Does this make sense? I'm trying to change the dominant default, or paradigm, from one of "Truth" as static, or a state of being, into one of flow, or transformation, or interaction, "Flow," or DANCE, or, sometimes better, "GRACE." Right? So, yeah, thanks!

Yeah! Like, and you CAN trust me on this: Try to stump me. "I dare ya." Just ask me a question, any question, and if I DON'T think "DANCE" is ACTUALLY the "right" answer, I will, confess that you have stumped me. And if you think I'm not being authentic, just say so. I WILL trust that you mean it. Even if you don't trust me. And I WILL meditate on it. I WILL try to DANCE with it. If I can't, I'll say so. This is just an invitation. Take it or leave it. Dance with me, or don't! I'll STILL take it as "our dance." I will. That IS how I'll take it. Anywayzzzzz……….. I'll be waiting.... ps: I don't do "serious" but I DO ENGAGE FULLY (if and when I can). pps: I don't think "serious ppl" are actually engaged. I think they're DISTRACTED. I think they're traumatized. They're preoccupied with something they've been fearing, and haven't been resolving. Yet. IMO. In My Experience.

@Bill W Thanks! (Personally, I don't generally back anyone. That seems adversarial and dualistic, to me, usually. I just try to be supportive of everyone, empathize with everyone, and try to find my own inner/outer grace.) But you? You a DO back!

@Nahm And here I thought I had done my absolute best to CONVEY that my "right or best paradigm," is LOVE, empathy, self as other!!! So much for the imagination that there is actual communication, without continual dialog. So much for the fantasy of instant understanding. I don't expect you to "get" this, either...

@Nahm Wow! I TOTALLY did NOT get that! You know, Leo posted me this, about my postings on this Forum: "Heads up, you're skating on thin ice here. If your weird posting continues, you'll likely end up banned. Nothing personal, but the way you post is a bit daft. We have quality standards to maintain here." and in response to my requesting that he be more explicit: "It's hard to articulate it, but many of your posts seem odd, nonsensical, pretentious, etc. In general, when you post, be clear about what you're saying and say it in a straightforward manner. Don't try to be overly cute or mysterious." So, your humor, as a moderator, seems inconsistent with this warning. Notice I used the word, "seems," because I'm sure I'm missing something, not sure what.. I suppose I could follow your posts, to get a better sense of where you're coming from.. But I will also ask you this, "where DO you stand on 'Truth'? Most specifically, do you hold to the Staticist Paradigm, as I would call it, that there is an 'IS' NESS, and that it's most useful to regard experience as Some Ongoing Any One Thing? Or, like me, do you have a strong sense that this 'IS' the prevailing Paradigm, both here on this forum, and elsewhere, ~ and that a countervailing paradigm, one of FLOW, GRACE, BEAUTY, EMPATHY, can be most useful, and that, in these terms, one such countervailing paradigm might be, as I believe: ONE IS GRACE?" But, given the parameters of your time/engagement constraints, and/or restraints, I don't necessarily expect you to respond to this question. But I remain curious..

@Nahm Truth = ? (I believe Truth = Grace vs Truth is exclusively the opposite of Deception I believe Truth is Personal + Interactive + Experiential + Beautiful + The Opposite Of Deception + Enlightenment + Exclusive + Inclusive + Among Other Things/As Well As Even More Exclusive/Inclusive + An Ongoing Flow Rendering All The Above Both "True" And "False")

@Maximo Casas ?

@LastThursday !