PepperBlossoms

@hyruga haha that was fun. Thanks!

@hyruga What if the idea of non-duality is way off then and duality actually is more accurate? Yes we could say that everything including ourselves is made of atomic particles but - if the atomic particles are separate from each other and each their own individual thing, and if everything is made of these separate atomic particles, then everything would seemingly be separate. Sure at human scale a table looks like a table for instance, but at the micro scale, a table could look like a huge crowd of particles each with its own separate self... so we have tiny things that are just clumped together to make bigger things at scale A that are just clumped together to make bigger things at scale B and on and on..

(sorry in advance for the long windy changing answer) logic/science/deduction/philosophy/non-duality/change/improvement/epiphany/skepticism/wonder/observation - whatever the heck works or transforms the existing thing/state to something else with more meaning than previously had yes - known unknown will tend to require some glimpse, even if completely wrong/inaccurate/fake/deceived of a would be known, otherwise it would not have been observed/noticed/thought about/considered/etc. yes - the known would tend to be a distinction - more knowns tend to be more distinctions; an unknown could be not knowing where to draw the distinction..? if we find out that the "known" that we thought we knew was way off and different, that known could transform to a different known. Example: I argued that it was a known than 25+25=40. Known to me. The other girl kept saying, no 25+25=50. I realized I was messing up my math - so I got a transformed known. What was one answer was now KNOWN to be a different one. The known transformed from one arrangement to another, but in a case, still stayed a known. We could, if we wanted, set the definition of a known as a guideline - which yes one could makeup whatever definition they wanted - we could say a known is a definition. Done. ha easy. If the definition changes, it changes. I guess an even bigger question would be, instead of what a known is, is what an unknown is... a lack of existence. The definition does not exist. There is no distinction. Hmm... well maybe that is not right either - I could say - I don't know your name and say that the lack of knowing your name is an unknown. But that requires that you even have a name which is also an unknown. But there is the idea that people have names which tends to be known. I guess the question is now, not what an unknown is but when a known could go from known back to unknown - which could be when I read that your name is Alex and take that as a known but then you tell me that it is not Alex so it becomes an unknown again - so then the known went to an unknown - so then comes the argument - how do we ever say that we can for sure keep the known in the known pile if it at any moment could get put back in the unknown pile - and in that case - we are out of luck because there are so many variables that something new could come along that just does not have an answer or make sense or work anymore and so it has to go back in the unknown. Yes we could just stay in the pit and sit back and say, there will be too many unknowns so don't even bother but at the same time, there is something nice about learning or thinking we are learning even if we are just deceiving ourselves even more.. which maybe is sad too.

@Peter-Andre Yeah it is an interesting topic! Ooh norway! That is awesome!! I find myself talking to myself out loud not when I am alone, but when I am working and am around others. I do find though that if I have a bunch of questions written down - it was faster sometimes to just talk it out loud and get to the answer than it was to internally speak it in my mind. Note - I read online that about approx 50% of people think in images and 50% in words - not sure why. When you say you think the words but not the way they sound..do you mean that it is like thinking but not having a care for the noise - but it is still the voice in your head speaking but you are just paying attention to the word part even though it still technically "sounds" like the voice in your head? Or are you paying attention to the letters so more the visual or imagery of the word? For me, the thinking in words is in "sound" form and I can start using accents for the voice in my head or go fast or slow and so it is kinda just like talking but not outloud but rather in my head.. or that is how it is for me.. (and no it is usually not accents ha but if I wanted it to be I could). Imagine - if we did not have language - so no words, we would not be able to think in words - I'd presume we'd think more in feelings and images (or it could still be thinking in sounds since words are still sounds but it would be more animalistic sounds)... maybe words are too formal and serious and if we used more simpler words, we'd tend to think more simpler (which we are kinda moving towards as seen in going from the flowy shakespearean English to simple English).

I have found similar insights like that too! They are basically a variation of- If statement A is this and statement B is that, then statement C is that - or some sort of if/than; if A is true and B is true, then C must be true; or other logic structures.. Good point on language. There is so much of that. If we decide that object is "apple" and that color is "red", then you can say the apple is red. Can start to find philosophy in everything. I went through for a while saying that everything was engineering, or that everything was optimization, or everything was arrangement - based on what framework I am trying to find and associate.

With the idea that people can nerd over anything and that nerdiness is the appreciation of information, what information/activities are you really nerdy about? Why that information? How has the information that you nerded about over changed over time? How is the information transforming your "arrangement" of "self"?

Thanks for shining the flashlight some more on this. Regarding opening and closing - I remember Leo talking on his blog about the idea of requisite variety - the idea that for every problem, you have to have at least one or more solution options that would reasonably address it- so in this case - we could, if we wanted, map out all of our known unknowns (a problem), and then map out all of our knowns that may solve the unknown (a solution or a path to get to a solution/understanding). We could then put ourselves in the position for one answer to every problem. However, the very moment we come up with a new unknown, we'd have to be honest with ourselves that it is an actual unknown, and can then add it back to the list of unknowns (or problems) and then have to be brainstorming or out on the look for a known (solution). -It would be a back and forth thing. If the known did not resolve the unknown, then the unknown would still be unresolved so still an unknown and we will have not found the solution yet and then it that case, "keep the box open" until we find something that does resolve it with no more unknowns left lingering.. Yes I can see that there is just SO MUCH INFORMATION from the past and present and only so much finite time and also information tends to be constantly transforming into other things that it can seem almost helpless to chase down but yet we still find the inspiration to go through the maze and keep looking, with no promise of a light out of the tunnel.

Wow. I am just now reading these. Y'alls responses are so good. I am amazed. Thank you so much.

What do y'all do to improve your ego development?

wow that was really good!! thanks for sharing! nice idea - don't close an explanation of something and keep it open ended - preserve a lack of closure well said. I guess the trick is to get over the hurdle to start to see/notice getting proved wrong and starting to learn that we don't know. Nice catch on the out there and in here. thanks for sharing! I really liked your video. Keep making those. - the notion of thinking we know biases the experience -- So - even if we get more experiences, we can't attribute them to be complete knowns as there tend to be too many unknowns - - so all we can really do is appreciate them but not take them too seriously (as was said by someone who had more knowns than me).... I can still see though that it can still be super helpful to draw distinctions and make judgements about a known even though it may never be a complete known - if we never drew a distinction, we may be unable to do anything - so there is a scope of keeping the spectrum open for new info but not open too far because we need to keep it closed some to still operate.

@Mu_ Your video was great!! Thank you so much for sharing it! That is such a good point - if we think we know something, then we may react a certain way but if we don't know anything, then we can just take it in with little to no reaction - because we can't really ever know everything, we can take the mindset that we don't fully know anything - so we can appreciate not fully knowing and try to catch ourselves when we are being reactive. You're a great speaker too!

Thank you for your stories.

Have you ever done stuff for the heck of doing it with no regard for how it turns out? Why did you have that mindset? What did you do? How did it turn out? Accept a job in engineering just to learn more about what engineering is; go into an acting class just to experience acting; trying out for a play just to experience the audition part; watching a surgery just to experience that; having your boyfriend's family go on vacation with your family just to see what would happen; quitting your job just to experience something different; talking to random people just to see what they have to say What's your story?

There is everything to learn; but there is also nothing to learn.

For finding "the ego" I can "see" it when for instance when I can see I am being super angry externally and want to let go of the anger but I cannot get myself to let go, or can see it in others with the lack of or tamed ego when someone is being super nice and caring or with their super low ego for not finding the beauty and appreciation for things or pointing the blame externally and never internally. It seems like the easiest to see when there is a problem and how the ego reacts to the problem - blame outward, blame inward, look for more info/understanding, look for ways to appreciate the situation.

@Consept okay thanks. That makes sense. If I tend to live in the dualistic mindset for day to day activities, I have just found that non-duality can be a helpful mindset to remind oneself of to cope with situations that seem very harsh.

Hmm. That is pretty interesting! My thoughts seem to be one after another. I can switch from thinking in words to using images or using feeling but my predominant way of thinking is with words - (maybe because I used to pray growing up back when I used to be religious and that was with words, but maybe not). I find that the words give me clear bullets of things whereas the images for me tend to be 2d shapes and I kinda have to "word" or "talk" my way through the image to get it to come up and get drawn in my mind and then I will talk some more with words to get the images to move around. If I am able to shut out the words and just have images/feelings - it will go much, much faster and and may let me see more of a meta perspective on how I really "feel" that things are going and can visually see the emotion behind the various situation I am dealing with from like a 3rd person perspective but also 1st-ish. I've been able to put words/concepts into boxes and then move the boxes out of the way visually so that I can focus on the concept at hand - or trying other abstract ways with words and images to get some desired effect - or try to go through a scenario.. I hadn't a clue that half of people tend to predominantly think in images and not words and found that super interesting. I had started to wonder how the others think, like how ANYONE THINKS aside from the methods I use, and if there was a specific thought organization method that people use that is super helpful for getting specific results. @Hulia When you say independent, do you mean that they just come and then go? It would be cool to get a recording or transcript or video of people's thoughts to get better ways for ourselves and see our deceptions and if others are understanding us or not but we are not 100% there yet technologically, which would also be terrifying at the same time. @OctagonOctopus agree that different methods will probably work better for different results. your bringing up abstract art sparks the question - what makes abstract art abstract?

Great answers. Thanks for the replies. The stuff that I "nerd" over changes pretty frequently - it has varied over time by taking pit stops at topics such as boys, spiral dynamics, philosophy, psychology, physics, atoms, magnets, aliens, healthy food/toiletries, politics, the ego, engineering, dead by daylight, leo videos, religion, history, careers, acting, money/debt at government levels, emotions, group need vs. escape, plants, what attracts materialism, hiking trails, non duality, productivity, abandonment, sustainability, war, concept of free education/medicine, personality disorders, how to think, enthusiasm, etc. I am kinda always on the lookout for more and more info and insights and epiphanies and interests don't tend to stay nerding out on the same thing for too too long - I somehow find myself moving from one interest (phase) to another. (Has to be a balance of staying long enough to get stuff out of it and see what all you have to gain from focusing on that to going on to something else. I enjoy talking to people for the heck of learning something new or a new way of thinking/perspective as well as just doing stuff to see what happens - (example - have swiped right on dating apps on every single person regardless of their profile to learn about their career/life when single) although yes that can be problematic as in the end path is unknown but the path is basically to not get stuck in one aspect of life too long and to try to explore many aspects to get more lenses to look at life from.

Fascinating. How does that work exactly? What do you mean by parallel words and how are they doing a job separate from you?

I am wondering what ways we can go about it so that we can take away the duality as much as possible or other ways of thinking about it/perspectives to take on and various integration techniques. @Rajneeshpuram I can see that the non-duality lens can help with the ego development as it can tear away the need to dominate and understands that it is all in this together (but yet there is also a way of splitting off with limited access such as only accessing ones own thoughts) and wants to explore portion of the whole but also the whole. what makes good and evil necessary?

Thanks for the responses! I have found that I am best able to get better with my ego when my ego is acting out. I found myself super angry at having to quarantine after being exposed to covid and was blaming everyone else and realized that I was at fault for putting myself in the situation to get exposed as well as was blaming the others.. I also was fortunate enough to watch a Susanne-Cook Greuter video (that someone had share on the forum) on the ego's response to covid and saw how low my ego was. I had never realized just how undeveloped and low my ego was - it was the lowest stage! I found Susanne and her peers super inspirational and then was able to see the beauty for the quarantine and how much it was helping me and went from angrily texting people about how much I hated the quarantine to really seeing that I do not want to kill others if I do have it as well as all this alone time giving me time to work on myself and explore new things. I have also found that when I send a message that is full of low ego, my body will feel a shock - it will literally feel like a shockwave or punch - or like an electrocution. I will start to feel this sharp pang of hate. I will then see that it is the ego being the ego - the ego is now naked and exposed and I will delete the message if I can or apologize. I can start to see myself getting arrogant or cocky. I find that the more ways we can get the ego naked and exposed for being the ego, we can more quickly stop letting the ego act out. The ego may try to come up with more and more ways to stay hidden and act out in the dark without us noticing and it is up to us to be on the lookout. People with low ego development, like me, may have NO CLUE AT ALL that they have a low ego as it is that low (especially if all of their peers do not understand ego development and so they cannot see it for what it is either).

Omg this is the best. Thanks for sharing!! So awesome that he persevered!

I was questioning the idea of "Till Death Do Us Part"; or "I will love you forever"; or "friends forever". I don't see how people can commit to marriage when the idea of staying with the person till death (or divorce) is on the table. People change all the time as well as feelings. There is no guarantee that the feelings felt at marriage will be the same later as well as the person you are and your partner. I can see though that it is easier getting a commitment so it is one less thing to worry about as well as easier for the kids if there are any. I can see that when the relationship is going well, the commitment can be easy no question. When the relationship is rocky, the commitment may be one of the first things that may get questioned. I can see that if the person is an essential part of your survival, it is easier and more likely for the relationship to last. When they are no longer essential but an added bonus, it won't necessarily last.

Examples that I had come up with: Throwing away enough stuff so that there is space for new stuff. Organizing the existing space. Getting enough sleep, food, water, relationship needs, information, other needs, etc. taken care of so that they are not crowding the creative space. Getting tools/materials that can be used and combined together in different ways. Having ways to fill up a pallet but also easily have an empty pallet --- putting thoughts down somewhere so that you don't have to hold on to them and can let new ones come in (whether that be by writing the thoughts down, telling someone your thoughts, keeping track of them with Trello, Microsoft Paint, etc., thinking with just the mind) Having enough rules set to not have to make too many decisions but also not having too many rules to where no decisions can be made. Putting yourself in situations so that you can see something as if you have never seen it before.

Just some things to think about: Consider the clash of ego levels of male with female and how they would interact and respond with each other at various stage combinations. Higher developed ego female may reject sex to lower ego male. Higher developed ego male may reject marriage to lower ego female. If the ego levels are too far off from each other, they may not work. If the pair are close in ego level, they may work better. Lower ego may not see what the higher ego can see and thus won't even consider this as it isn't aware that it is at a low level. Lower ego may be benefitted by suppression in order to move to higher ego stage. Suppression could include one person dominating the other in terms of height/mass, more knowledge, being stuck in quarantine alone in room for 14 days, taking away or missed out resources/opportunity, etc.