Ulax

That is a fair point. In some ways to me game is a hobby, where in I mostly enjoy learning what works and why. That suits Todd's style. I am doing only online atm. And a few dates but no sex. So I can't speak on efficiency. Online game has been an interesting adventure though. I had basically a massive setback in life around dropping out of university and many things fell apart for me. My in person game also was so much effort for little reward. And found it quite damaged my self-concept. Also my motivational circuits really shut down around game because of the loss of confidence from these. So I stopped irl game. Anyhow, after stopping i would always get annoyed/ inspired at myself and try to motivate myself to try game again but I found I could not do so. However, i watched a video of doing what you could do rather than should do, and decided I could give online game a try. So, I started going on tiktok lives and talking to the girl streamers to practice and also to learn the steps of the todd model. Because although laughable it was better than nothing lol. Anyhow, I first started with my previous idea of self-amusement which didnt do much. But then I found I could actually really start to have an impact there with all these todd tactics, despite these girls getting hit on all the time. It was pretty exciting. 99% of them live too far away but it has shown me there is at least some added effectiveness of the techniques online. Of course this is very far away from irl cold approach but some of the same key dynamics apply.

i get the too much work thing. I can see why that would be a turn off. From using that frame, I've seen how it really make a girl WAY more interested compared to not using it. So from an effectiveness stand point it can have a powerful effect on a girl's interest in you.

Fairs. If you had an unfulfilling experience with it then i get why you find it limiting. I actually have a similar view that it is very stage-orange and is a journey to be eventually transcended. A big part of my motivation is to integrate more stage orange. But without integrating stage orange things like success with women, it will eat at us and limits in many other ways. So to me it is either avoid it and have some benefits but ultimately make yourself stuck, or go through the journey and then when the lessons and experiences have been earnt you choose to transcend it.

Ok it seems you want to talk about the new topic. I am interested in it now too, so let's see where this goes. Right now, with only those two choices, I would pick 1.

Thank you man. I appreciate that. I get you will have based that answer on experience. So i value what you say. But I would struggle with how actionable that sequence is.

Yes. I tried that a lot. Found it not very effective with women. But again you are talking about a different topic. Emotional well-being and the effectiveness of different game-styles are very different. I want to talk about the latter.

Well now you are making assumptions. And are talking about a different topic.

I get the argument that trying to set high-value frames naturally implies you are not high-value to yourself to some degree. However, I see it as a question not of what would be perfect if it existed. But what is the best approach that exists. I don't know of any other way of making high-value frames automatic that don't come from corrective experiences with each type of women. However, we can't just get those corrective-experiences from a product. We're in a catch-22. The corrective-experience is the best way to get the girl but to get the girl we need the corrective-experience. So there has to be an imperfect bridge we use to get those corrective-experience, and to me that is consciously trying to appear as high-value. I used to believe therapy or mind work could do that but i'm very skeptical of that these days.

If you have met many men like that then it makes sense you would come to that conclusion. That is a fair point. However, I don't see how this is a critique of whether his techniques work with women. And this reminds me of a critique i have of ex-puas who then talk of the ills of puas. They seem to get a lot of results from pickup and then they move onto the meeting of higher-needs. And then in pursuit of those higher-needs they see things like the validation wound being at the core of their pickup drive, or how they were addicted to power searching. However, they ignore the many needs and problems that without pickup they would still be affected by. For example, having low social standing in society because of struggling with women, not meeting your sexual needs, not being able to get the type of women you want and having to settle for someone who ends up with a LOT of power over you, lack of confidence, and very importantly BAD SUBCOMMUNICATIONS (successful pickup dudes can afford to stop game because their experiences in game mean they naturally exude higher-value). Take Neil Strauss, for example, dude did the whole pua thing then went into therapy and said pickup was toxic. He made many fair points but I doubt Neil would have had the success and same level of relationship he had today without game. And im sure part of the reason his relationship works is because he has good sub communications from his success with women.

I get what you're saying. I can see how in myself the focus on all the tactics and intricasies makes me more try-hard internally, at least for now. For example, instead of just seeing how things go and self-amusing you have a set of high-value frame you want to instill. However, I would point out that you have seemingly had a lot of positive results with pickup and women. And essentially you are the high-value guy that game tries to get girls to perceive newbies as. So you naturally convey high-value. Therefore, you don't need to rely on consciously setting high-value frames and can therefore afford not to focus on technicals to set frames. Whereas for a newbie or game-struggler they are, at least in game terms, a low-value guy and therefore convey low-value to girls. So, they need to consciously focus on setting high-value frames. This also applies to intermediates who struggle with various categories of women or struggle to get the quality of interaction they want.

What are your critiques? I agree he is very technical game. I follow him almost exclusively because I can actually spark attraction and flip the script with his teachings. Before I did a lot of practice in pick up but with little result. Tho that was mostly from youtube videos rather than a course.

I see your point regarding the low-value self-concept starting point. Why not focus on changing that to being better and an interested not sold frame emerges naturally. But I doubt how possible it is to change that self-concept sufficiently on your own such that you start automatically communicating a interested not sold frame automatically. My view is that self-concept changes relies a lot on corrective experiences. And so to genuinely get an interested not sold frame with a girl you have to get results with that type of women before. But to get those results in the first place you need to speak from an attractive frame such as interested not sold.

I respect your experience and results with pick up, so i will respect it is very possible there is something I am missing. But I watched a Todd V video which said that it doesn't work to communicate interest via those ways. So, it seems you two are in disagreement.

I get where you're coming from. Better that just being in platonic conversations to nowhere, or her getting weirded out by not knowing why you're talking to her. BUT showing interest alone (assuming this is what you are saying) gives SO MUCH power away as a dude. She is fully validated by you, and it sets the frame that you are the one chasing her and that she is the person of higher value in the interaction. I much prefer Todd V's interested but not sold frame. She won the job interview but now she needs to meet your standards. Gives less power away, more natural leads into evaluation, communicates better social proof, gives her a better experience (you were sold on her looks AND personality, not just her looks)

LOOL