Ulax

Yes. I tried that a lot. Found it not very effective with women. But again you are talking about a different topic. Emotional well-being and the effectiveness of different game-styles are very different. I want to talk about the latter.

Well now you are making assumptions. And are talking about a different topic.

I get the argument that trying to set high-value frames naturally implies you are not high-value to yourself to some degree. However, I see it as a question not of what would be perfect if it existed. But what is the best approach that exists. I don't know of any other way of making high-value frames automatic that don't come from corrective experiences with each type of women. However, we can't just get those corrective-experiences from a product. We're in a catch-22. The corrective-experience is the best way to get the girl but to get the girl we need the corrective-experience. So there has to be an imperfect bridge we use to get those corrective-experience, and to me that is consciously trying to appear as high-value. I used to believe therapy or mind work could do that but i'm very skeptical of that these days.

If you have met many men like that then it makes sense you would come to that conclusion. That is a fair point. However, I don't see how this is a critique of whether his techniques work with women. And this reminds me of a critique i have of ex-puas who then talk of the ills of puas. They seem to get a lot of results from pickup and then they move onto the meeting of higher-needs. And then in pursuit of those higher-needs they see things like the validation wound being at the core of their pickup drive, or how they were addicted to power searching. However, they ignore the many needs and problems that without pickup they would still be affected by. For example, having low social standing in society because of struggling with women, not meeting your sexual needs, not being able to get the type of women you want and having to settle for someone who ends up with a LOT of power over you, lack of confidence, and very importantly BAD SUBCOMMUNICATIONS (successful pickup dudes can afford to stop game because their experiences in game mean they naturally exude higher-value). Take Neil Strauss, for example, dude did the whole pua thing then went into therapy and said pickup was toxic. He made many fair points but I doubt Neil would have had the success and same level of relationship he had today without game. And im sure part of the reason his relationship works is because he has good sub communications from his success with women.

I get what you're saying. I can see how in myself the focus on all the tactics and intricasies makes me more try-hard internally, at least for now. For example, instead of just seeing how things go and self-amusing you have a set of high-value frame you want to instill. However, I would point out that you have seemingly had a lot of positive results with pickup and women. And essentially you are the high-value guy that game tries to get girls to perceive newbies as. So you naturally convey high-value. Therefore, you don't need to rely on consciously setting high-value frames and can therefore afford not to focus on technicals to set frames. Whereas for a newbie or game-struggler they are, at least in game terms, a low-value guy and therefore convey low-value to girls. So, they need to consciously focus on setting high-value frames. This also applies to intermediates who struggle with various categories of women or struggle to get the quality of interaction they want.

What are your critiques? I agree he is very technical game. I follow him almost exclusively because I can actually spark attraction and flip the script with his teachings. Before I did a lot of practice in pick up but with little result. Tho that was mostly from youtube videos rather than a course.

I see your point regarding the low-value self-concept starting point. Why not focus on changing that to being better and an interested not sold frame emerges naturally. But I doubt how possible it is to change that self-concept sufficiently on your own such that you start automatically communicating a interested not sold frame automatically. My view is that self-concept changes relies a lot on corrective experiences. And so to genuinely get an interested not sold frame with a girl you have to get results with that type of women before. But to get those results in the first place you need to speak from an attractive frame such as interested not sold.

I respect your experience and results with pick up, so i will respect it is very possible there is something I am missing. But I watched a Todd V video which said that it doesn't work to communicate interest via those ways. So, it seems you two are in disagreement.

I get where you're coming from. Better that just being in platonic conversations to nowhere, or her getting weirded out by not knowing why you're talking to her. BUT showing interest alone (assuming this is what you are saying) gives SO MUCH power away as a dude. She is fully validated by you, and it sets the frame that you are the one chasing her and that she is the person of higher value in the interaction. I much prefer Todd V's interested but not sold frame. She won the job interview but now she needs to meet your standards. Gives less power away, more natural leads into evaluation, communicates better social proof, gives her a better experience (you were sold on her looks AND personality, not just her looks)

LOOL

Sorry I'm late, traffic was awful Daddy's home Sorry no flirting with me please. I'm too tired I saw you staring at my butt from across the room so i thought i'd come and say hello. Hey, scuse me Pleased to grace you with my presence Also, i like taking the frame that I'm this incredibly attractive guy who is sick of absurdly constantly being hit on by the most beautiful girls in the world and just wants to live a normal life. Makes me LOL. I respect bros who do more sincere game but it makes me want to fucking KILL myself.

Great replies everyone. That was good fun 😂

😂

I dont think that is true. Many men rank poorly compared to Brad Pitt but still get laid. So accessibility is something to be accounted for.

All the best to you on your adventure bro!

I agree to an extent. The Leo example is a good example in some ways. However, I could see how someone could do 1000 approaches plus and still get unpromising results. Key reasons being not following good pickup theory, or not following good skill improvement theory. For example, Leo talks about having studied pickup theory as part of learning pickup. Imagine he'd just winged it.

https://www.cheetahhouse.org/ These guys might be able to help. That sounds dreadful. I'm sorry.

2500 approaches is very impressive amount to have done. So respect for that. That shows the block isn't effort-based. Don't let people gaslight you otherwise. My guess is you need better theory bro. What is your current pick up strategy? Even if that strategy is being yourself And I agree that Escort could be good idea. And Todd V could be very helpful pickup wise.

That was quite something to read

I'm not sure whether I love or hate Dean lol

Is interesting you say that. I recently having working on a tonne of Todd V stuff, and one of my biggest changes is focusing on qualification as a sign of attraction from the girl. Aka her giving unnecessary clarifications, excuses, explanations when she talks to you. Or just trying to change the perception you have of her. And I realised women actually qualify quite frequently to guys but I didn't pick up on it. Not only with me but I also watch a lot of more normal dudes in conversations with girls and see girls qualifying themselves too to them. But I bet a lot of those dudes don't think she was into them. But actually the girls were to some degree!

Ankara Messi! Ankara Messi!

Conversational skills are part of pick up for sure. But that isn't enough, you also need to know how to make things man to women for example.

I get where you're coming from. For example, pickup is based around having success in casual dating usually over a one or two night period, and relationships over a much longer period and there are many more serious parts to it. However, every relationship also has a beginning period. A first meeting. A first date. And pickup is all about making that first period go really, really well. And making that first period go so well, means you have MANY more options, and are able to choose someone who is more of an actual match.

Good tips, but Mark conveniently leaves out the pick up journey he went on to be able to have a very good dating life.