Ulax

@integral Thank you

@Thought Art I think I share what seems to me to be an ambition to see the forum become more conscious, collaborative and respectful. I've had a think about what personal actions a user could take in an effort to help achieve that ambition. Here is what comes to mind for me and what I thought would be conducive to these aims: - Speak using first person language. I.e. 'I think that X is the best solution' instead of 'X is the best solution'. - Don't be verbally abusive to the other person. No matter what they say to you. For example, instead of responding 'You're being an arsehole' you can respond 'I don't think its appropriate to speak to me in that way' and report their post if you think it is abusive. To my mind, responding to abuse with abuse is still abuse. I still find it inappropriate and also is part of what derails dialogue and the chances of a more collaborative atmosphere on the forum. - Take responsibility for our own emotions. Instead of placing the responsibility for our emotional responses on others. For example, I'd say it is taking responsibility if we say, 'When you said X, I felt Y'. And, it is not taking responsibility if we say something akin to, 'you make me feel so angry' or 'nah that pisses me off'. - Report comments/ posts if you think they are behaving abusively - Voice opinion regarding behaviour of mods and/ or Leo, non-abusively, if you think they are not responding reasonably to abusive behaviour or engaging in it themselves. - Show an understanding of the other person's position. - Don't invalidate the other person's feelings, i.e. 'you are a pussy if you feel scared', or 'don't worry' ---------------------------------------- I like that you made this post btw. I've decided to intend to have a read through that book about impossible conversations that I believe you said Leo recommended you.

@petar8p I agree re money. Regarding the alternative, I think there will likely be various alternatives. However, I think the major solution will be conscious politics, or a really effective AI depth psychotherapy that gets developed in the future.

@Jacob Morres I agree with the idea that focusing so heavily on outer game can be v counterproductive at times. It seems to me that by not doing deep inner work and doing lots of outer work many folks develop cluster b like coping strategies when they get effective at pickup. For example, I look at videos by someone like Bradicus who seems to me to have not done too much deep inner work, and it seems to me like he's got an unchecked grandiosity to numerous of his behaviours. Also, I want to speak on what I think is a slightly different, though related subject. I think RSD, and to some extent also how Leo, are not conscious of the negative aspects of recommending pickup in such a seemingly one-size-fits-all fashion. I think rsd is mostly stage orange, and red. I think it follows that they don't understand the effects of their teachings. For example, it seems there is an idea that those who are the most successful by pick up norms are seen to be winners who simply exercised their freedom of will better than those who are less successful by pickup norms. I think folks who engage with their content will have very mixed results. And the results, as I believe is so with everything, will ultimately be determined by factors outside of their control like mental health situation, social experiences, circumstances, luck of results, financial situation, ability to resonate with the material, ability to have an open mind. However, I don't think any RSD instructor acknowledges any of this to a significant level. And I don't think its in their business interests to acknowledge it openly. From personal experience, I believe made progress, in some significant aspects, through doing pickup. However, I believe I had some seriously negative effects from it. For example, I think as a consequence of implementing pickup aspects to my life, i.e. cold approach, I was re-traumatised, and the severity of my dissociation subsequently increased significantly. I'm not saying that pick shouldn't therefore be recommended. However, just that recommending pickup, in the broadstroke way I see it tends to be, can lead to negative consequences for various people. In that aspect, I think there is a lack of integrity and/ or consciousness with regards to the behaviour of those who do recommend PU in that way.

@integral To your understanding, is this diagram made based on a theory of David Hawkin's?

@Natasha Hi Natasha, just noticed this thread. I'm curious about whether, it being a seemingly long time since you made this thread, you have any of your own perspectives to share re overcoming obstacles surrounding transitioning into yellow?

Hey dude, I personally appreciate various aspects of the story you have shared here. Sounds to me it took some courage to post this, and I respect that. Here is my perspective. I think your perspective on Owen's content being the source of various struggles in your life has some aspects that might well be valid. On the other hand, I do think that it is important that you also take responsibility for what I see to be the following choices of yours. Firstly, to engage with his content, to engage with it to the extent you did, and also to follow it for the length of time you did. I'm not intending to say that you are to blame in any way. Its just that to my mind, I think its important to reflect on how, knowing what you know now, you would have handled the situation differently. Also, it seems to me that you are at points claiming that Owen's teachings negatively effected your life. It seems to me like that puts you in the position of being a victim. However, I think a healthier perspective to take would be that your decision to follow Owen's content seemed to lead to adverse consequences. Again, I'm not intending to blame but instead stress, what I see to be, the importance of taking responsibility, and also seeing yourself as not being powerless. I also think that most aspects of Owen's content is not particularly high conscious, i.e. not tier 2 (Am intending to use a spiral dynamics term regarding tier 2). I don't think his programmes have much stage yellow to them, so to my mind its not going to meet the consumer where they are at, and understand what they need in their particular circumstance and place in their life. I see his talking about losers and winners as being partial demonstrations of this lack of tier 2 consciousness. I'm not intending to blame him either. However, stage orange folks aren't, to my understanding, very conscious of the effects of their actions, and how systems of cause and effect work. Also, it seems to me like you are vulnerable to cult-like dynamics. I see an example of this being that you said you 'hung onto every word he said'. I think you will likely come across other people who have the same personalities and resonance as Owen, and the same unconscious dynamics will attract you to them. So, I would recommend looking into working on that apparent vulnerability. I think Leo's cult video series, developing a greater sense of self trust and general inner work will help you with overcoming this apparent vulnerability I see in you. So, what to do now? Firstly, if you think that the course creator promised to include certain things in the course, and it didn't fulfil those promises, then I'd recommend writing a complaint email to the customer service. I would recommend being non-abusive in this email, and speak from a first-person experience, i.e. 'It seems you promised X, but didn't provide X in the programme'. I recommend this email, if indeed you think promises were broken, because I think it will help you have more of a sense of self-respect. Whether or not they seem to agree with your complaint, I don't think is that important. Secondly, I'd journal about how you feel regarding what happened. Thirdly, I'd journal about what you can learn from these experiences. Fourthly, I'd read the book, 'When I say no I feel guilty' by Manuel Smith to get, what I see to be, a greater understanding of boundaries, responsibility and assertiveness. ------------------------- I hope my words are of value to you. I will note all of this is just my personal opinion. It may be that my opinions are mistaken, or that your personal circumstance means that my advice isn't suitable for you.

I think moral relativism can be misused. I.e. people say because everything is a matter of perspective we should do X, without acknowledging that 'we should do x' is still only a perspective. I think Bertrand Russell makes a useful critique of some moral relativist theories. I don't really understand why people don't just talk about it in terms of Nihilism. I get the sense that David Hawkin's hasn't deeply thought about what he's written here, and is caught firmly within ideology. It also appears to me that he is claiming that moral relativists in saying something is objectively wrong, are therefore saying that its okay to do that thing, i.e. paedophilia. Which doesn't seem to me to be the case.

@Illusory Self Seems to me like there are repeated behaviours where she is portraying an entitled attitude to you. That 'You should not see other girls' sounds abusive to me. To my mind, a healthy variation of that would be, 'I would prefer it if you did not see other girls'. To my mind, its healthy because it simply illustrates an expression of her needs, and acts like a request. To me, that would represent a world view where she sees you as equals. Her communication seems to me to be like a demand that you sacrifice your needs to meet her needs. I think this kind of person will need to do some extensive inner work before they can have a fulfilling relationship. Without her doing such work, I don't expect a relationship with her would be fulfilling or healthy.

How to distinguishing between doing some in the central way or the marginal way. I.e. you can get become educated in two ways. In both it requires you read a lot of books and study them in depth. However, in the central case you think for yourself, and the marginal case you do not. So, in the marginal case you are educated but it is a perversion of an education. Where as the central case is an example of being educated in the fullest sense, in the truest sense. If you want citations for some study materials on this, feel free to pm me. Thought this could be a useful topic.

@mr_engineer Ah fairs my dude. Seems like I made a partially mistaken assumption about what you were trying to do.

@mr_engineer To some yes, to some no. I think it would be pointless me saying it to some feminist demographics. I'm not actually intending to tell you to stop complaining. Its more that it seems to me you are trying to persuade people to your viewpoint and it doesn't seem like your strategy is v effective to me. To my mind, complaining isn't an effective way of persuading people to your point of view.

@mr_engineer Dude imo if you give people lectures they tend to get more polarised against you. Do you want to complain at people or do you want to see the change you desire? Imo, you can sit around all day complaining and saying the world should be this way or that way. I think i fucking get it. I often wish the world was another way. But, no matter how much anyone complains, the way the world is at the current moment is the way it is at the current moment. If you wanna bring some positive change, then imo you gotta be strategic about how you go about doing it. Imo the way you're communicating you're actually further enabling toxic feminine behaviours. The way I see you speaking seems to me to just play into toxic feminine narratives re those who call out aspects of feminism.

@mr_engineer Dude I think I get the some of the points you are trying to get across, and I think there needs to be more consideration given to the aspects of the issues you touch upon. However, I don't think the way you are going about promoting the issue is helping your cause. It seems to me the way you are communicating is more likely to polarise people against your points of view. I understand it may be a subject you feel strongly about. It seems that way to me. However, I think its important to be conscious about how you put your message across. Otherwise, I think you'll likely be harming the very cause you want to promote.

@UnbornTao Hiya i'm not too sure what you mean by your second and third paragraphs, and am not sure how to provide you with more clarity re my point.

@RMQualtrough I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Firstly re dating some people want high levels of abundance in their dating life, which to my mind require a much higher level of attractiveness that most people in relationships. Also, I think people with mental health issues will have to invest a lot more time and self-work into getting the sorts of healthy relationships that come naturally to those without mental health issues. Secondly, Re the spirituality thing, I think I get where you're coming from. On my end tho, I'd say your example is more an issue of spiritual bypassing. I think spirituality is better treated like the icing on the cake of life. When its used as a means of overcoming traumas, I think that is often a trap. I think there's are many v useful aspects of self-help and also quite a few non-useful aspects of it.

Congrats!

@RMQualtrough Ye I think so too. I think there are plenty of folks who live reasonably happy lives without ever transcending ego. Also, these days we have things like depth psychotherapy that didn't used to be around

@spiritual memes Ye i agree

@Optimized Life I don't think dudes who had loving upbringings with a healthy sense of direction in their lives will necessarily need self-help to live enjoyable lives. However, I think that for many men some self-help is important.

@ThePoint I think i've had some new thoughts re your situation. I think it could be that, given your upbringing, a lot of your motivation came from meeting needs of one or both of your parents. Perhaps, you then projected that onto things in your life, i.e. doing well in gym will meet parents needs. However, i think it may be a life experience or reflection on life experience may have been interpreted as making it seem to you, unconsciously, that meeting their needs is not possible. Hence, the lethargy. I would try to get a new attachment figure in therapy to effectively replace an unconscious understanding of an attachment figures expectations of you. In the meantime, I think it might be worth looking online for male authority figures who trigger a sense of motivation within you via their videos. Then again, it might be that your current situation is a means of attaining a need for independence, through a sort of rebellion against the control of your life by parents. So, maybe, what i see to be, your repeated asking for advice will continually lead to more rebellion, as each piece of advice you try to follow further negates your need for independence. Also, if you have lots of thoughts tell you that you need to do X or Y, you could d a meditation where, using your inner voice, you shout 'fuck off' at them. I understand this to be what Pete Walker, a seemingly well-regarded and expert complex trauma psychotherapist recommends in part for trauma recovery from cluster-b style parenting.

@bmcnicho I'm somewhat of the same opinion. However, I am aware that it could all be, what I see to be, very strategic use of opinions from Leo. Though, I don't find myself that confident regarding the latter point of view.

@bmcnicho At least in part, are you saying that the net effect of Leo's posting this video could likely be to make republican's have more success in the midterm? Also, I believe I understand where you are coming from when you say these are Leo's personal political views. On my end, I think that a lot of Leo's claims were not so much his own political views but instead about the level of consciousness with which political issues are being thought and approached by many on the left. Finally, it appears you think there is a divide between Leo's recent video on the left and self-actualization and spiritual development. However, to my mind, a significant aspect of self-actualization is to do with moving up and integrating spiral stages (re spiral dynamics). Stage yellow is one of these stages. Stage yellow, to my understanding, has a lot to do with thinking about big picture issues in a systemic and competent fashion. To my mind, it appears that Leo's video on when the left goes to far will likely give people watching on the left the opportunity to move up from stage green to stage yellow, hence aiding their self-actualization. Further, if more people raise their consciousness surrounding politics, then it seems to me to follow that society will increase in consciousness, and a society that increases consciousness will give, on the societal level, dramatically more people the ability to self-actualise.

@Rasheed Perhaps you could work on self-amusing more in your interactions. I think that way you could improve your social skills, meet your no. of interactions goal, and also be more stimulated.

Hi @Sucuk Ekmek, I don't quite understand what you are intending to communicate. However, I would like to. Would you be willing to explain what you are intending to communicate in different words?