Raze

As much as I disagree with him, I don’t think so. He said he supports a two state settlement and later acknowledged the siege on Gaza is collective punishment. I think he can change his mind. Even if I don’t these discussions are worthwhile for other people reading or to learn more myself.

Specific claims were made about what happened on Oct 7. Either it happened or it didn’t. No one has provided proof there were 40 beheaded babies which caused outrage and encouraged more force and violence used on Palestinians, but at this point the only confirmation is 1 baby was killed and it wasn’t through beheading. How many babies has the idf killed since oct 7 party because of outrage from this claim? Even mainstream outlets are questioning these claims now https://www.thetimes.com/magazines/the-times-magazine/article/israel-hamas-rape-investigation-evidence-october-7-6kzphszsj https://archive.is/eJwj3 Any of this can be stopped if evidence is presented.

Thousands of Israelis are literally marching in the streets because they don’t think their government values the hostages lives enough.

Yes…let us analyze major anti guerrilla warfare operations by U.S. and Europe and compare them to Israel Vietnam - despite failing to destroy the Vietcong and North Vietnamese for years, the US gov doubled down and increased war efforts, this resulted in the deaths of thousands of Americans and thousands of Vietnamese, in the end the vietcong were not destroyed so it was all pointless. Similarly in Gaza major military figures inside and outside of Israel themselves have been speaking publicly about the goal of defeating Hamas being unrealistic. At the same time the goal of rescuing the hostages through force seems to be ineffective as they’ve rescued only 7 from military means and killed at least 3. If ultimately the hostages are only saved from a ceasefire and Hamas is still operational at the wars end this will mean Israel had sacrificed its own soldiers, killed thousands of civilians, all for no reason as the end result was the same politically as it would be if they agreed to a ceasefire earlier. Afghanistan - the US originally supported extremist jihadists in Afghanistan to fight the Soviet Union. Aside from this resulting in millions of afghani deaths in the resulting war and civil war, later this backfired for US security as the Taliban hosted Al Queda who carried out the largest terror attack in the U.S on 9/11. The US would go on to invade Afghanistan to depose of the Taliban, sacrificing thousands of their soldiers lives, trillions of dollars, and thousands of Afghanistan lives ultimately the taliban retook power now stronger having gained support from the civilian population the U.S. massacred. Similarly in Gaza Israel’s government chose to purposefully prop up religious extremist Hamas to hurt the secular PLO and damage the possibilities of long term peace with a two state solution. This ultimately backfired as Hamas carried out the largest terror attack inside Israel on Oct 7. We will see in the future if Israeli military actions will ultimately strengthen Hamas or a different extremist group. Ireland - In response to IRA terror, Britain used repression and violence, this resulted in more terrorism followed by more repression and violence. Eventually the strategy changed and they decided to pay attention to the grievances and motivations for the attacks, this lead to the Good Friday agreement and the terrorism subsided. Similarly in Israel the state has consistently responded to terror with further repression and violence. An example of this can be seen in casualty counts for the first Intifada https://www.btselem.org/statistics/first_intifada_tables This later lead to the more violent second intifada, settler violence in occupied West Bank, blockade and barrages on Gaza, all resulting in more extreme terror. This indicates Israel is following a similar pattern to the northern ireland conflict and could potentially resolve it by addressing the core grievances of the repressed Palestinian population.

Israel has just faced one of the largest attacks in its history and is now facing wider war with hezbollah and Iran, the current policies clearly are not effective at creating security. You can indeed blame Israelis for there being no trust for a Palestinian state because the PLO gave up armed resistance and acknowledged the existence of Israel, and rather than leverage that for peace Israel expanded settlements in the West Bank, increased the blockade on Gaza, purposefully empowered Hamas, and has killed thousands of Palestinians. “Who is to say that Palestine won't turn into Hamastan in no time?” So Israel is justified in permanent blockade and occupation no matter what Palestinians do because they may in the future all become Hamas. What other country is allowed to stop another country from existing because that country may try to harm them? Given that there is violence towards Israel right now and the publicly stated reasons are the occupation and blockade clearly this doesn’t create security either. A country that repeatedly puts other goals over the safety of their own civilians does not treasure life point blank. The pov of the Zionist movement is to ethnically cleanse Palestine to create a Jewish state, not to treasure life and create security, so far the project has killed many people and put Jewish people at risk.

1. Then why has terrorism from the West Bank increased over time? Prior to the first intifada the population was so passive Israel controlled it with a small amount of forces. The first intifada especially at the beginning was largely peaceful. 2. how does the West Bank post an existential threat to Israel? What forces in the West Bank can destroy Israel, keeping in mind the PLO gave up armed resistance decades ago. 3. Israel is expanding settlements in the West Bank further taking over Palestinian territory, and settlers have killed hundreds, and in Gaza Israel has killed tens of thousands and are in the process of making it unlivable. Does Israel not pose an existential risk to Palestine given it is a far greater loss than what Israel is facing? Does this justify Iran funneling money to Hamas and Hezbollah to resist to you by the same token if trying to control someone else’s territory is justified for defense? Keeping in mind Iran like the rest of the world votes for a two state solution and Hezbollah said they’d stop striking Israel if a ceasefire in Gaza is released, a ceasefire again the rest of the world also agrees with, just not Israel.

What you’re saying makes no sense. Israel could get all the hostages back safely, instead it’s invaded Gaza killing many of its own hostages. Israel could have encouraged a peaceful Palestinian movement, instead it refused cease fires from Hamas but funneled money to them despite their terror activities. Israel literally has an operation procedure to assassinate their own people to avoid capture. Call it a hard nose approach or whatever, it is not a “reverence for life”. Also, a reverence for life includes all life, not just Israelis. Throughout the history of the Israel state it has killed thousands upon thousands of non-Israeli civilians. Justify it as you will, but that is not a reverence for life.

If appeasing Putin means a neutral Ukraine and ending a war that cannot be won, he would save potentially thousands of lives.

I’m predicting suspecting extremist assets will infiltrate from the border, carry out a 9/11 like event as revenge for US support for Israel’s siege of Gaza, the government will use the brief burst of national unity and large censorship apparatus it is building to pin the blame on Iran and justify invasion like they did Iraq.

Not true, Israeli Colonel Doron Hadar was the commander of Israel's military negotiation unit with 27 years of experience, says himself Israel had many chances to get the hundreds of hostages back safely and quickly, but instead engaged in a military campaign that killed thousands of civilians, multiple hostages, all to save just 7. https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hyw3njjr0

Try yoga, walking meditation, or noting

https://twitter.com/alon_mizrahi/status/1799189139029409935

In 1999 the founder of Hamas called for a ceasefire with pre 67 borders In 2006 the Hamas prime minister offered a ceasefire with 67 borders In 2017 charter removed calls for Israel’s destruction and replaced it with a call for 67 borders Even if you don’t believe them, what’s more important is that they lack capacity to return to 48 borders or even 67 borders without Israel’s consent. What Israel has capacity to do, calls for, and is doing, is the continued destruction and occupation of Palestine. Which puts their own citizens at risk.

Actually, 2023 was already the deadliest year for Palestinian children prior to Oct 7. No matter how much you insist on it, you can’t escape the fact Oct 7 didn’t happen in a vacuum. and No, Israelis do not do anything for “life”, they had a Hannibal directive policy specifically to assassinate their own soldiers to avoid capture. And despite being offered all the hostages back at the start of the war, refused and engaged in the invasion of Gaza which has so far killed more hostages then they’ve saved from military action. What standard do you hold Israelis who you claim to care for? You defend their occupation and blockade which resulted in Oct 7 in the first place, you’re no different than hamas supporters enabling them to put Palestinians at risk while claiming to care for them. You enable the Israeli government to put its own citizens at risk by playing the victim and defending their war crimes, which just leads to more attacks towards Israelis.

That doesn’t dissolve the distinction, Zionism is still a specific political ideology. That was true about the Torah for thousands of years before Zionism. Well yes, how was it fair for the Jews to expel thousands of Palestinians from their homeland to declare a Jewish state on land other people lived on without their consent? If someone kicked you out of your home because they said their religious text claims their ancestors owned this land thousands of years ago would you be ok with it? But there is a clear pattern between Israel’s actions and a growth in antisemitism. As unfair as it is, this is the natural result in Israel claiming to represent the Judaism and Jews, but going on to commit occupation and war crimes in their name. If you’re criticizing Muslims personally because a majority Muslim country commits human rights abuses just on the basis they are they identify as the same religion, that would be islamophobia the same way it’s antisemitism to criticize Jews for Israel just because they are Jewish. But criticizing the states actions itself of the Muslim or Jewish person for backing it, wouldn’t be. It’s the opposite, no other country is escaping accountability and justice more than Israel. At least other countries behaving like this are sanctioned or considered Pariahs. Israel on the other hand gets endless funding and forced adulation from the US. In the end it only hurts them because it empowered the worst aspects of their society to continue bad behavior, this is the result. If the US followed its own laws on funding countries committing illegal acts, they wouldn’t be funding Israel even prior to this war because of the settlements. Maybe the average Jew does, but not the government of Israel. They want to control greater Israel and ethnically cleanse the Palestinians living in it. There are many valid arguments you can make about the fundamental flaw of ethnostates including Israel. You could argue much of the violence and racism Israel perpetrates is a manifestation of this. If it’s not true and an ethnostate can behave morally, Israel isn’t helping that argument with their behavior. Many famous historians and economists both defenders and critics of Israel are warning Israel is on the path to self destruction. Israel very possibly may be going away and potentially bringing us all down with it if they don’t change their ways. You aren’t helping them by trying to deflect every criticism to other countries. Maybe if the West treated Israel like it treats Syria you’d have a point, but we are enabling this.

https://www.bfrb.org/articles/how-to-stop-biting-inside-of-cheeks

1. If the argument is Iran generally funds Hamas to oppose Israel no one would argue with you, but jumping from that to they specifically planned October 7 is a huge leap and could be used to justify regional war 2. Israel and US military also have young people in their ranks, but not in leadership positions. What makes you think Hamas is disorganized? They were organized enough to avoid their plot being leaked from inside, organized enough for most of their leaders and hostages to avoid capture after nearly a year of war. Its not incompetence from Iran if they didn’t see Oct 7 coming, it would make sense given the risks of it leaking or risks for Iran if it got credibly pinned on them. Yes, everyone is incompetent. Gazans are the most monitored population in the world by Israel yet they got surprised by them using hand gliders and bulldozers. Iranian commanders and scientists get assassinated constantly despite knowing the US and Israel is hunting them. A huge portion of IDF casualties are by friendly fire and accidents with no Hamas involvement in this war. The US overthrew Saddam claiming it would stop terrorists like Al Queda and it allowed Al Queda to expand to Iraq where they weren’t previously and allowed Iran to expand its influence and proxy groups. Israel transferred funds to Hamas and blocked their attempts to bring the PLO into Gaza strengthening their armed wing. The US tried to overthrow Assad but just made him dependent on Iran and Russia, and forced millions of refugees into Europe. They are mostly all highly corrupt, religious fundamentalist, or stupid and literally millions of lives hang in the balance of their decisions.

1. Ok, but where does that lead to concluding it’s obvious Iran told Hamas to do Oct 7? 2. Ultimately this doesn’t show Hamas troops are so young they need Iran to organize them.

What is the evidence Hamas is primarily composed of teenagers? Yes, the median age of Gaza is young, that doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of adults in Gaza who work for Hamas. Half of Gaza is women, but Hamas doesn’t have women in combat roles. The only evidence I found was this 2001 report which indicates Hamas did not generally use child soldiers. https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2001/en/64736#:~:text=There have been reports of,not to date included children. They recruit minors, but that doesn’t mean minors make up their combat troops. That doesn’t go against my argument. There is a difference between being behind a organization, and supporting it. This is support, Iran provides funding and training. That doesn’t mean they directly control what Hamas decides to do. So that indicates the US’s main motivation is not global democratic values but rather global influence / power

1. That’s largely bluster they backtrack from https://archive.is/LvuYA 2. Iran doesn’t have capability to destroy Israel directly and their military strategy is analyzed as defensive instead focusing on leaving offense to small rebel groups they try to influence and fund, their only ability to destroy Israel would be getting nuclear weapons, yet they offered to turn the Middle East into a nuclear free zone, Israel rejected it, made a nuclear deal with the USA, but the US dropped it after pressure from Israel, and still they haven’t made nukes 3. Israel heads of state regularly try to lobby the USA to attack and destroy Iran like they did Iraq 4. what is far worse than threatening to destroy a country is actually doing it, which Israel has been doing to Palestine and it is their official position to reject the two state solution, which Iran supports.

1. Gaza having a young population isn’t proof Hamas is teenagers who can’t organize, their are adults in Gaza and hamas is run by adults. Here are the leaders of hamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Haniyeh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Sinwar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Deif 2. Iran isn’t behind Hamas, just supports them. They have other funding sources and Iran doesn’t fully control them, for example they had a brief falling out with Iran when Hamas backed militias opposing Assad who Iran supported. Yes, it’s completely believable Hamas wouldn’t tell Iran their plot as that risks it getting leaked. 3. the US doesn’t uniformly support democratic world order, the US has regularly supported dictators and overthrown democracies in its history

Get ifs therapy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4VohoFTz5w