Raze

There actually isn’t solid evidence Gadaffi did such mass rapes. The US toppled Saddam it allowed Al Queda to take root there and lead to foreign fighters flooding into it and civil wars that killed hundreds of thousands. I don’t see how you can say their biggest issue wasn’t foreign intervention when it does that.

The Vietnamese did things that would make Al Queda blush. The biggest of these happened during the Korean War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_South_Korea If this was happening today everyone would be saying Asians were inherently violent terrorists and ideological possessed against the west and we just need to bomb them more.

Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, and Palestine were all way better places to live before they had their major foreign interventions. I find that more convincing then that all their societies just collectively decided to stop developing. It’s hard to develop when you are being bombed and sanctioned for, literally, decades.

Because you’re conflating longer periods of time with recent history. Yes the Middle East had less technological development than the west after the Islamic golden age and it wasn’t primarily because of western intervention, no one is arguing that. But in *recent* history there is a clear line of foreign intervention destabilizing the region and hurting its development. We have internal documents from 1958 where Eisenhower was concerned with a campaign of hatred against the west in the Middle East, and one of the largest western international bodies, National Security Council, looked into it and concluded the campaign was based on public perception the US was supporting repression and blocking development to exploit resources, and they also concluded this was correct but that it was necessary. And that was before the US replaced a secular leaning leader in Iran for oil which later inspired a Islamist revolt, before the US supported Wahhabism spreading from Saudi Arabia which inspired Islamist movements, before supporting Saddam Hussein when he committed genocide against Kurds and invaded Iran and then later toppled him creating a massive power vacuum, before Russia invaded Afghanistan and the US armed islamists, before the US, Russia, and Iran intervened in civil wars in Yemen, Sudan, and Syria making the conflicts 10x more violent, before the US sanctioned middle eastern countries crushing their economies etc. Muslim countries that had less foreign intervention generally are doing better, even though they often lack resources of middle eastern countries.

Those countries collapsed because of massive violent foreign intervention. The west massively screwed over the Middle East by importing nationalism and arbitrary states then flooding them with arms and military campaigns their development wasn’t ready for to exploit them for resources.

There sense of purpose is survival because they are in a situation where they fight to survive. The only one expanding is Israel, which announced the biggest West Bank land grab in a long time and is discussing settlements in Gaza.

The west and Saudi Arabia put Yemen through a manufactured famine and dropped bombs on them for years, their issues are just a lack of western capitalism

https://archive.is/EKrRu https://www.timesofisrael.com/joining-forces-with-gantz-yaalon-rules-out-support-for-two-state-solution/

Based on what? Even former prime minister Ehud Barak admitted if he was Palestinian he’d probably be a terrorist how does that solve the Palestine issue

It’s like saying western governments are run by Christianity and the age of enlightenment There is a lot of influence yes, but they have a lot of variance, evolution, etc.

Apartheid, blockade, and bombings create violence and rebellion everywhere else they were done, I don’t see why we can’t presume it contributes here. George Habbash was responsible for a large amount of anti Israeli terrorism, and he was Christian. So they must stop giving the population a reason to support radicals who do things like Oct 7 My point was, they weren’t motivated by Islamist ideology, yet they still attacked Israelis, so why presume islamists only attacked Israelis because of their Islamist beliefs, when even the anti Islamists are doing it. That may be true for the top brass. But they can’t sustain themselves without a popular support. The public only supports them if they feel the alternatives don’t work. If Israel doesn’t give them freedom when they do anything else, naturally they turn to radicals. How is the solution to keep doing what gives them recruits rather than start doing what removes them

For one the Knesset just voted overwhelmingly against it Here is a article from a Jewish American political scientist who was a former Zionism advocate on why he thinks it won’t work https://archive.is/EUzxL I’m not against it if it’s the only possible solution.

Except it’s not an ideological issue. The original Palestinian population was actually one of the more secular in the Middle East, they attacked Israelis still. For decades the main perpetrator of anti Israeli violence was the PLO which was a secular nationalist organization, not a religious one. Exit Polls of Palestinian voters who voted Hamas into power actually found most were voting against the PLO for corruption and most still supported the two states solution. Of course their is hatred, but it’s because of what they continue to go through, not an in built ideology. Hamas recruits from orphans of IDF attacks. No you don’t, you can deal with criminals without carpet bombings so massive the majority of children have PTSD and blockades so strict 40% of the population is unemploted and 90% of their water is contaminated, all of which were documented by human rights groups. If that way was the real path to safety there would not have been a October 7th. As things get worse for Palestinians, their violence increases. It stands to reason if things get better, they can reduce.

This study found that Palestinian education wasn’t that anti semitic https://archive.is/8fuQa Also the former head of Shin Bet Ami Ayalon said in his experience when it looked like a two state solution might happen he experienced far less security threats.

Sharia law is a broad concept that can be twisted to mean many things. Not every middle eastern country behaves like the taliban. You people act like everyone who isn’t Muslim who goes to the Middle East gets shot on sight. Many Jews lived peacefully in middle eastern countries for centuries prior to Zionism at a time when they were even less secular.

That didn’t happen when America ended slavery, South Africa ended apartheid or the UK let the Irish split. As Nivisch said Palestinians in Israel live their peacefully. Palestinains will fight much less if they had equal rights. If you were born in a blockaded Gaza or were born in the West Bank surrounded by soliders and harassed by settlers where you have 0 influence in the government that rules you, you’d hate them too. But if you had equal access to voting, public infrastructure, and civil courts, you would now have a lot to lose and a lot less reason to fight.

I know that, but that’s the problem, because if Israel accepts the Gaza and West Bank population the Palestinian citizens combined will outnumber Jews and have more influence over government. Also a Israeli court itself said it found Israel discriminates against Arab citizens and Netanyahu basically admitted he is trying to reduce their fertility rate.

The thing is that Israel relies on US aid, but polls show the majority of young people are against them, so in 20 years time probably US aid will start being restricted unless they do a two state solution or one state solution. The problem is there are way too many armed settlers in the West Bank now to do a two states solution, (it would be even hardrr than expelling Gazans), and by then the Palestinian population will have been separated for three generations so they will basically be different societies). But if they do a one state solution then the majority Israel population will be Palestinians and if they demand the right to vote then the government will be controlled by Palestinians not Jews. So what Israel is probably trying to do is cleanse Gaza of most of its population by making it unlivable and eventually pressuring other countries to take them, then they’ll try to cripple hezbollah and either get Lebanon to kick them out or cripple Lebanon as a country, then they can get the US to invade Iran and topple their regime (they really just need one establishment republican to win the presidency for this) , by then there will be enough extremismt in the West Bank for them to do a similar operation there and expel most of their population. Then Israel can simply turn around and say they were actually wrong and agree to accept Palestinians as equal citizens and give them the vote, and the world which would be mounting pressure on them now will forgive them (people are actually very forgiving, like how Germany was largely forgiven despite everything they did) and take it as a victory for their advocacy. But there will be so few Palestinians left they’ll be able to remain a Jewish state.

The “crazy anti Israel wokies” are the only ones who are advocating for a practical solution. If Biden tells Israel to take a ceasefire or they get no more aid, they will have to accept a ceasefire. Multiple past US presidents have done this and it worked every time. Israeli citizens protesting the war but not being against any of the practical means that allow it to continue will not do anything to stop it from continuing. If anything now Netanyahu wants to end the war even less because the second it does he knows they’ll try to throw him out of power and into jail.

I honestly think they should stop protesting. Peaceful protests aren’t enough and can just be ignored and now there is a risk when Israel starts bombing Lebanon more hezbollah may try to bomb Tel Aviv and it could put protestors in danger, even if the rockets are intercepted there could be a stampede. At the same time continuing the protests could motivate Netanyahu to escalate in the north to distract and accuse them of supporting Hezbollah which is now a more capable threat than Hamas. They won’t like to hear it but at this point they’d either need to do a complete strike and riot to the point where the idf can’t sustain troops in Gaza and has to do a ceasefire to have manpower left to stop them and guard the north. Or they’d have to join the anti Israel left and demand Biden condition aid on a ceasefire because if the Israeli population is saying it too the pressure will be too much as he can’t portray himself as pro Israel by supporting the war anymore, and then Netanyahu will have no choice as he can’t sustain the war without the aid and needs it to strike against hezbollah. Or, and this is a long shot, start pressuring the courts to drop the case against Netanyahu and publicly saying they are ok with no elections even if the war ends, Netanyahu is possibly refusing a ceasefire because he’s afraid if he does one they’ll have an election and he’ll lose and then get jail time, so maybe if that’s gone he will consider it. I doubt they’re willing to do any of these though. But barring that I don’t know what they can do. Another problem is if Hamas runs out of living hostages they won’t admit it and will try to draw things out as much as possible as they have nothing to lose anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vivGQWrXdqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBOSqgPg8jc https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/art_urges.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EogjdB3msWA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkfXuIIfULU