Raze

Actually that was Israel’s official hasbara about how Palestinians are “brainwashed”, they would constantly point to textbooks http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/yale-professor-blasts-blindness-of-israeli-education-minister-over-school-textbook-report-1.501475 What you’re linking to are the actual random cherry-picked clips as opposed to something like textbooks which would show a consistent operation of an education system. We can do the same for israel https://forward.com/opinion/197866/when-israelis-teach-their-kids-to-hate/

Study of textbooks found Palestinian textbooks weren’t antisemitic https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-08-10/ty-article/.premium/no-palestinian-textbooks-are-not-antisemitic/0000017f-f1ff-d223-a97f-fdff7f7f0000 The hatred isn’t because of the school system, it’s because israel has murdered thousands of civilians and occupies millions without rights.

Not really. - it is having a major brain drain, which is a big issue since it’s a highly stratified society. - it has dangerous levels of political polarization - it relies on international support which is called into question as international public support is declining rapidly - the economy has suffered a lowered credit rating, high debt, and rising cost of living Like I already said your analysis is based on two faulty assumptions, the more developed side will always be more moral and will always win. That isn’t true. A simple, example is Apartheid South Africa. White South Africans were more economically developed than South Africans, yet they lost control and the South Africans now treat them far better than they treated blacks during apartheid. (Not to say they don’t face mistreatment). You need to let go of the idea israel is some bastion of enlightened western liberals. When polled 66% said they would vote for Trump over Kamala. Among younger Israelis it was something insane like 90%. https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-israelis-massively-favor-trump-over-harris-in-us-election/

These are UN votes on the issue. It isn’t leftists vs everyone else. It’s everyone else and leftists vs Israel and its lobby

This is how hamas justifies oct 7, yes.

Illegal settlements grew under every prime minister.

Yes, they can’t do whatever they want because of international pressure, but the polls show what the majority would be ok with if they could. Trump won among voters, not necessarily the whole population, also it was a choice between him and Kamala, not overall.

Haaretz has only 4% readership, it’s a small minority,

We have polls now showing the majority of Israelis want Gaza starved and half want all Gazans killed. Find me a similar poll for Americans regarding Afghanis. When a news report revealed American soldiers were torturing Iraqis at a prison, there was widespread outrage in America. When it was revealed israel was torturing Palestinians in sde teiman and are on video raping one, polls showed the majority of Israelis don’t believe they should be criminally prosecuted.

Then how do you explain polls showing the majority of Israelis want all aid to Gaza blocked?

Is Hamas demolishing the homes of Israelis and moving in armed violent Palestinians who regularly go on rampages beating and killing Israelis in their own homes every year where the Israeli government doesn’t even defend itself? No, but israel is doing that to palestinians in the West Bank, who is the rat in the pan in this scenario. Nothing about what israel is doing is about dealing with Hamas. If they actually wanted to deal with Hamas, why did they - send funds to Hamas - not guard the Gaza border - reject Hamas’s offer for a ten year ceasefire in exchange for a state - reject Hamas’s offer to disarm in exchange for a state - reject the offer for Hamas to give up power to the PA Netanyahu himself has stated multiple times the goal is ethnic cleansing, which you acknowledge, why do you keep repeating that they are just “dealing with Hamas”? The homeless man scenario implies it happens randomly and force is the only option. A more accurate comparison would be if you kept the homeless man locked inside a prison for years and limited his food supply and regularly beat him while arresting his family members, then he busts out and attacks you and kidnaps your family, and says he’ll give them back if you stop attacking him, and you say no. That’s what israel is doing.

The issue isn’t killing thousands of civilians, the issue is the US saw that as a byproduct to be minimized while it targets enemy combatants. Israel sees punishing civilians as the goal to advance ethnic cleansing. We can see this in ratios, in the US wars they killed more combatants than civilians (directly), even in Syria which involves Russia and Iran and ISIS over 80% of the casualties were adult men. Meanwhile in Gaza israel has blocked food and medicine, destroyed nearly every hospital and school, and under 40% of the casualties are adult men, and Israeli politicians have stated multiple times the goal is to make Gaza unlivable and ethnically cleanse the population. Vox interviewed four genocide / international law scholars in 2023, and only one said they thought Israel was committing a genocide, then in 2024 they interviewed them again and only one thought they weren’t committing a genocide. A Dutch newspaper interviewed seven genocide scholars in 2025, all said they believe Israel is committing genocide, and some even said they didn’t know anyone in their field who thought it wasn’t. Even if they are somehow all wrong, the fact that the genocide discussion is seriously on the table means Israel is comment war crimes far beyond what the US did in the war on terror.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOctI24m_mQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTyqhn6Z3BQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHuEke_0VPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taqY9EvchHs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8k4UiDwSJw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TILyiv8UsSU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJr17ulat9A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb2Uat_hGSc

And they were forced to let in some aid so as to not look bad. They said this themselves. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/05/19/israel-gaza-aid-netanyahu/ They also weren’t allowed to stop the water as they wanted from day 1, and had to settle for destroying some water desalination facilities. This is false, most analysts believe they could make nukes if they wanted to. https://thebulletin.org/2025/01/how-quickly-could-iran-build-its-first-nuclear-weapon-look-at-china/ There is no indication they have tried to weaponize their nuclear program

https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-it-may-be-justified-to-starve-2-million-gazans-but-world-wont-let-us/

How is Hamas worse than the Taliban? Hamas didn’t even islamize it’s school system completely. Hamas proposed long term ceasefires on the border of two states, Taliban always wanted to fight for all of Afghanistan. We talked about nukes earlier, well Iran not only hasn’t made nukes but has proposed the entire Middle East be nuclear weapon free, israel literally stole uranium from the US to illegally make nukes and has a doctrine to nuke the entire Middle East if they fall. Clearly Israel is worse here, yet should we assume this is more moral because their “development” is higher? Russia and China are lower than Israel? What have they done in the last 30 years that is worse than what israel is doing right now? They absolutely have power to do something worse if they wanted. Before you say Ukraine and Uyghurs, it’s not even close.

Israel isn’t under existential threat from Hamas either, they are completely blockaded in Gaza and just fire rockets that are easily intercepted. Oct 7 was a fluke from incompetence and even that wasn’t an existential threat. This isn’t just common war crimes happening in war, the former Israeli PM literally just wrote an op Ed admitting they are committing illegal war crimes as an act of policy, not accidentally. The comparison with the US is not a good one. Nothing in the US war on terror was remotely as bad as what israel is doing, more may have died but it was far more combatants to civilians and a lot was indirectly because of incompetence leaving power vacuums. Have you read the amnesty international or human rights watch reports charging genocide? Or the ICC / ICJ cases? These aren’t being made lightly. The last conflict that had this rapid a rate of child deaths was Rwanda. The US public didn’t get wrapped up in a genocidal furor like Israel. A poll just came out finding nearly half of Israelis believe every single Gazan should be killed.

If you look at combatant to civilian ratios, Israel was worse than Hamas before Hamas existed, and off the scale since. Your analysis is based on assumptions that technological development equates to moral development equates to morality of actions. That makes no sense. We can look at what international law and human rights groups say about Israel and Hamas, they charge Hamas with crimes, but Israel with far worse crimes. Saying “Palestinians would do worse if they could” is irrelevant. So would israel. The finance minister admitted that he would like to starve all 2 million Palestinians but the international blowback would be too much. Not at all true, even Israeli historian Avi Shlaim acknowledges Hamas followed ceasefires much closer than Israel did. Historically israel provoked every war, the three times they didn’t were 73, 06 Lebanon, and oct 7, which they all did the worst in initially. Egypt was an Islamist country and hasn’t broke the peace treaty since they signed it. It was already reported Hamas agreed to give up power to the PA and Israel publicly rejected this. Historically terrorist organizations are usually beaten when they become political parties and agree to cease armed resistance. A terror group being destroyed by military action is rare because they regroup or another group forms.

Hamas doesn’t represent Palestinian society anymore than far right Israelis. What about the PA? They control the West Bank and they don’t even defend themselves let alone target civilians. Are they more developed than Israel now? That doesn’t compute since West Bank Palestinians largely live in squalor surrounded by check points and heavily armed settlers. Just saying Hamas would do worse if they could is irrelevant when you can make the exact same argument about Israel. Israel would do worse if it wasn’t for international pressure. They wanted to block all food and water after oct 7, only after the US demanded it did they allow it. I am not dodging it. My point is that development isn’t a determinist straight line, not all societies are more or less developed in even ways across all spectrums, and it absolutely doesn’t directly reflect in their actions every time. I gave multiple examples of this very conflict where a “less developed” state did less immoral actions than the “developed state”.

No, I’m disputing the notion Israelis are morally “superior”, by any relevant metric their actions are worse. The idea that having more economic and technological development by default means they must by default not be as bad in the crimes they commit is absurd when they’ve committed settler colonialism, ethnic cleansing, and now genocide. You can be more “developed” but commit morally worse actions and worse crimes than less developed populations. The ANC killed civilians and committed terrorism, but they weren’t “morally worse” than the apartheid government. I’ll even grant Palestinian militants are worse than the ANC because historically they targeted civilians more, but Israel is far worse than South Africa’s apartheid government, even former anti apartheid activists who lived through it said this. As an israel supporter you are no different, you’ve justified and defended monstrous atrocities far worse than anything Hamas has done multiple times. You’ve basically reverted into gross nationalism like on the other thread ranting about how this is all justified on religious grounds. The irony of accusing others of being childish when you proudly say you analyze the conflict from the perspective of being a nationalist Jew who thinks the religious claims of land ownership is relevant.

- pre-Israel Zionists had organized terror militias, Palestinians didn’t even have an army, it was Zionist’s that introduced tactics like hiding bombs in shops. They were more “developed” technology and tactically than Palestinians but they were arguably less civilized as they were far more violent than Palestinians who lived relatively peacefully with their minorities prior to Zionism. - during the 48 war, the Arab states did far less massacres of civilians in their captured territory than Zionists. When Arab states ethnically cleansed their Jews they killed a fraction of the civilians compared to Israel among the Palestinians it expelled. Yet the Arab states at time were far less “developed” than the European Zionist colonialists, their armies still used camels and they had low rates of literacy. - Israel does not “mostly” avoid civilian casualties. Look up siege of Beirut, a new idf soldier refused his orders saying they’d kill too many civilians and they stripped him of his rank and did it anyway, or the goldstone report which found they purposefully targeted civilians. Soldiers literally bragged to the media about how many civilians they could shoot during the great march of return. - for the current war NYT reported Israel was ok with killing hundreds of civilians in strikes if they suspected a Hamas commander would be hit. By this standard the suicide bombing aren’t terrorism because they can argue they may have hit a soldier off duty. A Us Gov whistleblower told 60 minutes Israel killed 70 civilians to bomb a tunnel that they didn’t even believe had a combatant in it. If a Palestinian militant killed 70 civilians to destroy some military structure that no one was inside you’d call them an undeveloped terrorist. But when Israel does it somehow it’s not as bad because they self declare to be civilized. - what makes you think Palestinian militants never worried about civilian casualties? Suicide bombings only showed up in the 80s after decades of brutal occupation, the first by Hamas was only approved after idf made the Hamas founder listen to audio of them torturing his son. They stopped doing suicide bombings for over a decade (aside from recent attempts) because of the heat they got for hitting civilians. Meanwhile Israel let settlers kill more and more Palestinian civilians. - that’s like saying if you had a kid you’d rather they be born in nazi Germany than the Warsaw ghetto or they be born white in apartheid South Africa than black. Having better living standards at the expense of others does not make you the lesser of two evils. You keep defaulting to the assumption that development automatically is reflected in actions and morality, that is not true, you can be more developed on paper and commit morally worse crimes than a lesser developed grip. You can be more developed and still be a greater evil compared to a lesser developed group if you are committing worse crimes.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-army-human-shields-80f358dd2c87a1123f26ffada159701c

So coddling their victim narrative would just make the problem worse. The only reason they think that is an absolute refusal to confront how their refusal to see humanity of Palestinians lead to that attack. It also assumes it’s their honest feelings. A lot of it is just a tactic to distract and delay pushback to buy Israel time to finish exterminating the Palestinian people. An example of this was how the ADL was saying accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing was antisemitic, then when Netanyahu announced he wanted to expel Gazans they turned around and supported it.