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Being a non ideological vegan for me would look like eating animals. Somehow I don’t think that fits the criteria of “vegan” .

Wrong my salad-munching friend. I bring up these three points because, as I am now saying for the third time, I was vegan. And these were the points that sold me. They spoke to things I cared about. Vegans told them to me, and I believed them. I think vegans are generally amazing heart centered people who are certainly more conscious than your average person. I like being friends with vegans, we often have a lot in common. I just wish they questioned their ideology a little bit more than watching Seaspiracy and Earthlings.

What are you afraid of by not being vegan until the day you drop dead . I was vegan for ~two years. Not afraid of it. Its ideological claims simply don’t hold up to scrutiny. Veganism is not inherently an ethically superior position relative to animal rights. It’s not going to solve the environmental crisis and may not even move us in the right direction. And it’s not a healthy diet for many people, if not most of them. That’s 0-3 of the things I care strongly about. Veganism is out.

@Dlavjr I’ll echo what @Michael569 said. Best place for your vitamins is from your diet. I’d look there first. Sunshine too as others have said for vitamin D. Bloodwork is easy enough to get as well. That can give you a clue of what you may need.

@integral If you’re going to do water, definitely make sure you’re properly supplementing electrolytes. Regular salt is often not enough. I’d check out Snake Juice by Cole Robinson and take that. I’ve found that water can be even harder than dry for a short period of time. I don’t know why that is, except for maybe that the body holds onto everything during a dry fast. My 3 day dry was far easier than 3 day water. So take that for what it’s worth. It’s probably going to suck regardless. Expect lots of cravings. You might even feel like you’re dying. Expect hot / cold flashes and maybe a racing heart beat. Assume you will have NO productivity during the fast and will simply have to lay in bed all day. Even if that’s not the case, it’s still a safe assumption to make. Treat it like you’re sick. The last thing you want is to be running around feeling like shit. Meditation and breathwork can help tremendously in the mornings, when your energy is probably going to be the lowest. Finally, if you really start having problems, don’t be a fool and call it off. This is not something to be a hero with. You can always do another fast at a later time.

@Stewart James Personally I love OMAD or two smaller meals earlier in the day. It certainly seems to give me clarity of mind. You just have to make sure you’re eating enough.

Then I don’t see how this relates to the conversation. Okay, so there are “high” resolution forms of intimacy and “low”, crude forms of intimacy. So what? Unless you are saying killing and eating animals is a form of that low, crude intimacy, then I’m not seeing the relevance. And if that is what you’re arguing, then I’ve already pointed out that I disagree, and that such a conclusion is founded on faulty assumptions.

My current thinking is that an all-animal diet, i.e pure carnivore, is likely to have long term problems. Yes, I feel it is undeniable that humans have some carnivore built into us. We thrive on animal foods. But it is highly unlikely that is all we ate. There was likely some degree of plant foods as well.

I’ve got to push back on you for that one. I don’t agree that killing animals is inherently some sort of dark, distorted version of intimacy. That is your projection, based on the assumption that killing animals is dark or distorted. And therefore any relationship or intimacy people gain from hunting must be dark or distorted.

I agree, that would be hypocritical. I would strongly advise people against factory farmed meat. It’s not good for your soul or your health. Scale is certainly an important factor. I’ve made that same point on my YouTube channel. Although it’s not the whole story. Indigenous folk saw things much differently. Inefficient perhaps. But maximum efficiency should not be our goal. That’s how we got in this mess. I am not suggesting a turning back of the clock and simply going back to an indigenous lifestyle. I agree we need modern solutions to these problems. But veganism ain’t it. Animals kill animals all the time, they’re not innocent little flowers. And yes, I understand there is a huge asymmetry of power between humans and animals that we use for exploitation. But that is not an inherent feature to eating animals. Something has to die for you to live. Vegan or not. If you specifically would like to see the practices of one of the places I source my meat, you can read about one of the farms I use here: https://belcampo.com/pages/about-us

It be great if we could do it for all of humanity but I don’t feel that is not realistic at the moment. We don’t even have a world currency yet. You’d need some sort of world governing body for such a thing. Or perhaps something totally decentralized, but that also seems unrealistic to me. Right now the highest UBI can go is the nationstate level. This sounds to me like a common misconception. The debt does not come from us printing nickels and pennies or any physical currency. Physical currency is a tiny percentage of our monetary supply. The vast majority of the money that is created today is already electronic. The debt begins to accumulate partially because 1) Money gets loaned into existence by commercial banks and 2) We have a fiat currency with no backing, therefore the monetary supply can expand indefinitely. That’s an oversimplification but it’s generally correct for the sake of this conversation. If you want to end the debt you need a much different approach. One potential solution I’m fond of is tying UBI together with the monetary creation process. In other words, instead of having banks loaning money in existence, money is created through an electronic federal direct deposit (UBI). That means no lending is involved. Add in a control for a demurrage rate and you’ve got almost a complete monetary system.

Call it whatever you want, I do not see your argument as holding any weight. The logic is not the same at all. Well for that one we might need another thread. For now I'll just say to long time vegans that you might want to get your bloodwork done. As well as a dexa scan for osteoporosis and a visit to your periodontist / gastroenterologist. If you're healthy on a vegan diet, great. But many people, perhaps the majority of the planet, will not. And so I see it as foolish to push such a diet ideologically. Sounds like a balanced position, thanks for your insights.

@Evoke Spiritual work is not going to turn you into some kind of ultimate PUA. Which I know is the dream a lot of pua teachers sell. There may be some overlaps, but it’s relatively minimal. It will, however, help you in an intimate relationship. So I would get clear on what you want. Do you want to just be a fuck boy PUA? Or do you want a serious relationship? Either choice will lead you down a much different path. Neither is inherently right or wrong, depends on your level of development.

That’s understandable. With respect, I would disagree. I very much resonate with what you were saying about your pet rabbits. I cannot even go into pet shops because it kills me to see animals stuck in cages and being put on display like some sort of cheap product. Nor can I even own a pet because I can’t get over the fact that it feels like borderline slavery to me. If I am going to “own” a pet in the future, perhaps some farm animals, I’d like them to live as close to their natural life as possible. I take no pleasure in causing suffering to an animal. But I also do not believe I am above taking a life to sustain life. And I don’t take that responsibility lightly. Yes I agree. There is no “convincing” because convincing is a tool of the mind. This is something to be felt. Either your heart recognizes the truth that this other being is actually You or the mind blocks it out. My prediction with lab grown meat is that we will discover it cannot be done in a way that truly replaces meat. Much in the same way we are discovering there really aren’t healthy GMOs. There will be downsides to people’s health.

False equivalency. You cannot reduce my argument to what you just said as eating animals is not at all the same as having sex with children. No and I don’t expect I will in the close future. As I said, society is not really set up to make that happen. My goal is to get to a point where all animal products I am consuming have come from my own hands. No. I’m usually happy with people go vegan, at least they are thinking about their relationship with animals and where their food comes from. That’s certainly a step in the right direction. The meat I eat is from regenerative farms practicing ethical animal agriculture. Yes, animals still die. But you could hardly call it factory farming like what is portrayed in most vegan documentaries I’ve seen. Aside for the reasons I’ve already outlined, I also do not believe veganism to be a healthy diet. Which also influences my choice to eat animal products for sure. That is another whole debate we could back and forth on forever.

In certain situations you either can’t cold approach or it just doesn’t make sense to. But yes, as I already said, I recommended guys have cold approach as a skill. Just don’t have that be the only tool you have.

It’s nuanced. For starters, I’m not referring to just unconsciously eating animals. The average person going to eat a cheeseburger from McDonalds is not going to have a healthy relationship with animals either. I’m speaking mostly of indigenous wisdom. I think it’s fair to acknowledge that indigenous people had a much more sustainable, connected, healthy relationship with animals. Sure, there may have been cases when they over hunted. But generally speaking, we moderns could learn a thing or two from them. Where did this wisdom come from? Were our indigenous ancestors just naturally more compassionate and happened to hunt and eat animals to survive? That is what most vegans would argue. Indigneous people ate animals because they had to. And now that we are more evolved, we no longer have to. I think it’s the exact opposite. Indigenous folks had that relationship with animals precisely because they ate and hunted animals. Taking a life so that you can live, consciously, is what cracks open someone’s heart. Our modern relationship with nature is very much out of alignment. Either we ruthlessly exploit it, or we attempt to distance ourselves as far as possible from it, usually as a counter-reaction to the exploitation. Veganism to me is a counter-reaction to the ruthless exploitation of animals. A swinging of the pendulum to the other side. But neither places us as a part of nature. There’s a great book on my website called Heartsblood that goes into some of these ideas. Granted, consciously killing and eating animals is not an easy thing to do in modern society. Society is not set up for that. So it is a challenging task, but it’s something I’m working towards the best I can.

@Emerald I agree that people are extremely disconnected from their hearts when it comes to animal suffering. If slaughterhouse videos don’t make you cry, I’m not convinced you are human. Where I would strongly disagree with vegans is that the most “heart-centered” POV is inherently to not eat animals. And that anyone who eats animals must be disconnected from their heart and the suffering of animals. In fact, I’m going to go one step further and say you are unlikely to develop a healthy relationship with animals unless you eat them. So yes we should watch our rationalizations if we eat meat. But speaking as someone who was vegan for about two years, it’s not the answer for most people.

I’ve said many times on this forum that I think debt and the monetary system should be the first places we look. Specifically, developing a universal currency that does not add to the debt when it is created. This is crucial because debt-based currency is what economists, mostly degrowth economists, refer to as “the growth imperative”. In other words, debt and our monetary system is what systemically drives the need for endless economic growth. Endless economic growth will inevitably result in exploitation. So if we are serious about solving imperialism, we need to take a hard look at money itself and how it’s created. Other ideas I’m in favor of are a UBI, more worker owned businesses, and some amount of relocalization of economic activity. UBI takes away the “carrot/stick” model we’ve been using to get people to work for hundreds of years. Worker-coops address the inequality and perversive incentives in employer/employee dynamics. And relocalization allows for greater community, resiliency and even connection to the natural world. There’s more we could talk about, but these seem most essential to me and in many ways are already in the works.

@Raphael It definitely depends on what you consider “work”. No, I could not do some tedious, menial task like data entry 10+ hours a day. That sounds like my definition of hell. But if I’m given a variety of tasks I feel strongly about, I can certainly go for 10+ hours. In this case, I’m likely to not feel as if I’m “working” at all, even though there’s an obvious energy expenditure. The key for me is shaking up the monotony, being purpose driven, and short breaks. If I really don’t feel called to do something, I usually won’t. And this means that when I do feel called to do something, I can focus and go all in. At least ideally.

Everybody thinks they can fight until they have to throw a punch

@John Iverson As I've said many times, I feel social circle is the best way for guys to be dating. I know Leo recommends cold approach a lot, and many guys on here seem to focus on that. That's fine, cold approach does have its place. But it's severely limited and bottom of the barrel when it actually comes to dating. I would focus your social circle around your Life Purpose. These values you listed: are good values. But ultimately I would get a lot more specific. What do these people do for work? What do they do for fun? Where do they hang out? And how can you provide value into those social circles with your unique life purpose? Once you've gotten at least somewhat more clear, just start putting yourself in those situations. Become a regular. Be seen, and be seen a lot. Make friends with everyone. Help people accomplish their goals. Be a connector and connect people who need introductions. If you do that you'll starting building a social circle in no time. Social circle happens fast, literally just knowing one right person can change your entire social life.

@machiavelli And what if everything you said is just a story you tell yourself to keep pretending you’re not God?

You don't need to wake me up to anything. Never claimed they didn't have a pathetic dating life. I would agree having a sex life where you're having sex with a lot of different girls is extremely rare. I'm simply stating the fact that these guys meet a girl at all is a testament to how powerful social circle can be. Understand I'm not arguing for a normie sex life when I talk about social circle. I'm talking about something way beyond that. Then argue your point. You haven't shown why you believe this or how social circle cannot be reliable for meeting new high quality women. I can tell you why I believe it does. It's because for the years that I was involved in the PUA community, the number one thing that consistently got me results was social circle. Even if I met a girl off cold approach, it was usually social circle that "sealed the deal" so to speak. For instance, I met my last long term girl friend doing cold approach. But were it not for my social circle, I doubt it would have gone anywhere beyond a good initial approach. Social circle is a deep honest signal. We agree on this. Not saying guys shouldn't learn cold approach at some point, I think it's an excellent skill / tool to have. Let's say I want to hook up tonight. I could go out to a night club, do the whole cold approach thing, meet a girl I've never met before, have sex, and then never see her or her friends again. Essentially we can both just fade out of each others lives. There's little to no strings attached. You're essentially anonymous. But in a social circle it can be different. If that girl is in your circle, you're probably going to see her again. Word might get around to other people you know that the two of you had sex. It adds layers of complication to casual sex. That's why I said it might be more difficult in some situations if your goal is purely as much casual sex as possible. Though a guy could get around that or even leverage it to his advantage through social proof.

Yes it can be done. Not denying it. I've certainly have found success doing day game. Sure, if you have no friends and no social status, that's an optimal strategy. Otherwise it's just silly to rely on that. Then keep doing cold approach. I'm just saying, there's levels to this. And cold approach is at the bottom. There's definitely a learning curve and you can improve. But if you don't believe cold approach is at the bottom of the tier of meeting women, I would say you're in denial. Not only is it reliable, it's better than cold approach in every way. The fact that normies who know nothing can meet a girl through their social circle is proof of that. Meeting someone through socializing and not "cold approach" is not a slander. That's a good thing. Cold approach is for guys who have no other options. And hey, sometimes you really don't have any other options. In which case I'd recommend cold approach. But let's be realistic about its potentiality for dating and its limitations. It also depends on what your dating goals are. If you're just trying to have a bunch of anonymous, random casual sex, then cold approach might be better in some situations. Simply because you want to remain as anonymous as possible. But even then, I'd still put my money on the guy with the strong social circle. But if you're actually looking for something deeper and an actual relationship, social circle is far superior. No questions asked.