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Great, that’s an empirical claim. Let’s hold him to that. Any other insights?

Well I don’t want to bash the guy too much. Maybe religion will help with his mental health and controlling his vices. That is obviously the appeal for many people. At the same time, the problems with organized religion are deeply obvious. Especially if your priority is serious spiritual work.

It's a good lesson in self-deception.

An interesting take by a left-wing activist: Her perspective is essentially that this is not new and that the Dems are ready for something like this.

@Carbon No advice, but I am curious to hear how it goes.

You’re thinking with the wrong head my friend.

Yes we obviously do not agree, hence the need for this conversation. If you think Trump has delivered what you wanted from him in 2016, feel free to share what it was.

I am challenging your perspective. And really the perspective of anyone with a Qi-centric worldview. In that sense I can be antagonistic. True but keep in mind my perspective does not negate the potentiality for the existence of something like Qi. Qi is contained as a potential form with Infinite Consciousness. It must be the case, in fact. The question is how that translates to the everyday life we are all living. With respect to this conversation, my general rule of thumb is this: Don't try to prove God with science. And don't try to prove science with God. New agers and Qi believers make this error consistently. They want to conflate these domains of understanding, and it usually goes badly. Perhaps in the future as science evolves that will change. Exceptions might also exist for people who are particularly knowledgable in both areas. But for the most part, I find this is a safe rule. It's not theoretically crazy at all. Maybe it's possible. But no one has done it, and we've known about kundalini, vitalism and Qi for thousands of years. Why not? If kundalini can be scientifically validated as you claim, why hasn't that happened? Why do we have scientific consensus around the existence of electromagnetism, the nuclear force, gravity, etc etc but not kundalini? Is it sufficient to chalk that up to the close-mindedness of scientists? Or that science is just still in the dark-ages around spiritual phenomena? Maybe. That be pretty bold. But also, maybe kundalini is just a bad model. Bad models are far more common than good ones. There are some people who claim to have the ability to do essentially the exact thing you are describing. These are your psychics, intuitive, occultists etc. But it can also be more subtle than that. The "electric universe" phenomena is a good example of mixing spiritual, psudeoscience BS. Take some premises that sound spiritual like "we are all one" and then construct a whole scientific theory around it. Except it turns out that the actual science is trash, doesn't work, and their spiritual platitudes mean nothing. You can dress up any scientific theory in spiritual clothing. It doesn't mean the science is now magically true.

Oh please. There are degrees of overpromising. And Trump is one of the worst offenders of this, much worse than your average politician. This is obvious enough that it shouldn't need to be said. You mean like the tax breaks for his rich oligarch buddies? The promises he does actually fulfill are dysfunctional.

If you want to go with that interpretation, then he’s still conning his followers by overpromising. Fixed so good you won’t have to vote again? Trump has no ability to deliver on this promise. In fact, it would be a disingenuous thing for any president to promise, even if they were extremely competent. Presidents are not god.

Let's not devolve to personal attacks please. This was a productive conversation. Well you said your views closely align with me on God. So why do you believe it? Some things just can't be understood with science. What I'm against is claiming you are not doing science when you actually are. Agreed. But you don't get to say your claims are scientific and then skip over the science part. Which is what some Qi practitioners do. They want the benefits of sounding scientific without actually doing science.

I have no experience with the things he is talking about. Because there can be no scientific evidence for what I am saying. This is the core bullshittery of Qi proponents. On the one hand, it's argued that Qi is beyond science. Fine. But then they turn around and make a bunch of pseudoscientific claims that could either be dismissed or validated by science. You don't get it both ways. Either the claims you are making fall within the domain of science or they don't. If they don't, then you don't get to make scientific claims. If they do fall within the domain of science, then you need to show your science to prove it.

I've been studying Leo's work for almost a decade. It would be rather embarrassing if I viewed God in that way. I'm talking about Infinite Consciousness. The formless infinity that contains all possible forms. In this way of thinking, science and the scientific method are forms. "Qi" is a form. "Physicality" is a form. Ontological differences of "realness" are forms. "Life" and "death" are forms. And so on and so forth. The nature of these forms are ultimately pure Mind, pure Consciousness. And somehow, they are also my Mind. You made a lot of points. Quite frankly there's too many for me to respond to each one individually, so I'm just going to make some general statements about your answers. First, I am not suggesting people don't benefit from Qi Gong or that anyone should even stop doing Qi Gong. Of all the energetic medicine practices I've come across, I think Qi Gong and Tai Chi definitely are some of the better choices for people seeking tangible health outcomes. And we do have some decent studies on that, as you pointed out. What I am interested in is critiquing Qi as a theoretical model. "Qi" is not limited to Qi Gong. This same vitalism model is found in Reiki, the work of Wilhelm Reich, chiropractic medicine, osteopathic medicine, all the various forms of TCM, yoga, bioenergetics and so on and so forth. There are even people using the idea of Qi in order to try and build over-unity devices that will replace fossil fuels. So there is a very wide range of beliefs and claims associated with Qi here. It's not just strictly Qi Gong. The problem is, how do we assess which of these claims are true, if any? And how does Qi fit into the bigger picture of God and Consciousness?

Yes but it's not just scientists who don't understand it. It's Qi practitioners themselves who can't seem to really answer these questions. Such as? I've done over probably a thousand hours of meditation and various yogic / reiki / energetic practices. In terms of experiences validating ideas surrounding Qi, that has not happened. Psychedelics are powerful but they've explained to me nothing about Qi. Only Consciousness and God. This article was an April Fool's joke. Read the whole thing. Well I'm looking forward to seeing that. Theoretical consistency throughout different schools of TCM is not enough. All that tells us is that people copied each other's thinking. Models need to make specific predictions and be reproducible to be considered scientifically valid. That's being maybe a bit generous. From studies I've seen, the results are rather mixed. Yes but that doesn't necessarily mean Qi is now real. Buzzing and tingling is not nessesarily proof of Qi. And if it is to be considered proof, then that would seem to make Qi a physical, scientific phenomena. And we should be able to measure it. Another perspective is that western science ignores Qi because it's an old and obsolete model.

Yes I've studied all those models. But I've not gotten satisfying answers to my questions. Some people claim Qi is a physical phenomena we can observe and measure, such as Biofield researchers like Dr. Beverly Rubik or Dr Konstantin Korotkov. There are also countless people who claim they can physically observe Qi with their eyes, such as Teal Swan or Barbara Brendan. Others don't want to put Qi into a scientific box at all and don't seem interested in asking questions about it. Others think we can model its effects, like with the Chakras or in TCM. But they still fundamentally view it as something not-of-this-world.

I'd argue that's not really the purpose of a romantic relationship. Nor is it very realistic, given how small a percentage of people are stage turquoise and that it's hard to attract someone at a stage you yourself don't embody. More realistic is to look for a partner with healthy Green / Yellow.

But what is that? Can we measure its existence like we can with physical forces (electromagnetism, nuclear force etc)? Does it have a particle or unit? And if not, then how is it that you can interact with it? And how are we to determine which models around the use of Qi are the correct ones?

You yourself are likely not stage turquoise.

It’s some of both. He promises the world to his followers to sucker them in. But also, you can bet that trump will attempt to take as much power as he can if he elected. And considering SCOTUS just granted him immunity and Project 2025 is lining up loyalist hacks to fill our institutions, autocracy becomes a very real possibility.

Trump's top skills: Con-artistry, failed coups, grabbing women

Yes but the reality is that you have to try something to better your situation. This sounds like something that could be worth a shot. Your mind is already filled with all kinds of dogma and ideology.

Because you want what they have.

Educate yourself and then contemplate. There is plenty of analysis out there already.

Agreed. I’m not seeing a lot of talk about what needs to be done after Trump loses in November. But I’m sure he will try to pull something.

Keep in mind the goal is not to force transcendence of Orange. If Orange is where you are at, that’s where you are at. That’s what is realistic for many people. We want to take what is best from Orange and leave the rest if possible. We are building on top of each stage. For instance, you should be able to set an ambitious long-term goal and diligently work towards it everyday. This will also require healthy Blue discipline. If you cannot do this, what chance do you have of achieving loftier social justice goals like at Green and above? You cannot even run the basics of your own life, let alone solve the collective problems of society.