BlessedLion

I gotta agree here, I don't think we should castrate ourselves or guilt ourselves for having casual sex with women. It doesn't need to be "I'm either with my wife or i'm celibate" , nothing wrong with having lovers. To me, the disgusting fucked up thing is leading on and tricking a girl to open her heart, then abusing that vulnerablitiy to extract sex. And when you are honest about where you are at, it will in some cases lead to less sex, as a man that's just the pill you gotta swallow for being in integrity and not tricking women

I now see what you are saying here and that makes sense. Never thought of it like that but it makes sense. This i have to disagree with, because for a man to get results here he has to genuinely develop himself in a certain way. It's not the same for women, if a woman wants sexual / validation results all she needs to do is dress skimpy and act easy. That's why i see the development of sexual and attraction skills as a great mirror for men to develop themselves. And it can be done with integrity and ethics. Also, like i said, if they never learn these skills they are basically fucked- no one is coming knocking on a guys door begging for a date, he has to learn how to build attraction and have options or else he will become desperate. The main argument i would hold here again is the fundamental difference between male and female sexuality. As you stated earlier, women don't have problems with attraction and options, if it has legs-there's a guy who will fuck it. For men , it's not the same at all. Tons of men have absolutely no options and if they suck at confidence, flirtation, physical escalation, eye contact and generally being comfortable in their sexuality the will "ick out" 99% of the women they talk to- even if they've developed a great character. The sexual and attraction skills in themselves are their own thing that men need to develop. Also, i have a feeling that most women, when they sleep with a man, are actually usually interested in something deeper whether they will admit it or not. A man is okay having sex with a woman he could never see as a wife, i think for women it's not the same. Sure , that's a cool and level headed way to go about it. I like that you include room for some "Saltiness" (human imperfection) and weigh it with their good qualities. That's healthy.

It's the cost of having ethics and growing a spine as a man. You get less sex, but you can look at yourself in the mirror. That said, sometimes there are women who genuinely are in a phase of being open to casual sex and you can go about that with a playful, respectful, kind attitude. No reason there can't be love there either.

Yeah, and you can't quite put your finger on it but something is off. I feel that way when i listen to Orion Tarabhn , he's selling a whole paradigm that is pretty powerful and a framework that is hard to break down- but fundamentally lacks heart

I think if a woman is on board with that and the boundaries/expectations are clear there is no issue. What i have a problem with is leading women on, being deceptive, especially when for the most part they don't want casual sex. Most of the women i talk to don't seem interested in that as they have already experienced it, like a phase. Sometimes they do, but i think that needs to discussed and clear before moving forward. Otherwise, there's no problem there at all.

Ah my mistake, i realize that in these examples you were just showing how the Red Pill justifies what it does and how it basically gaslights the shit out of anyone critiquing their models. This was a great read, thank you for sharing. I definitely feel for women in this sense, which is why wayyyy back (lol) in my intial post i said the truth of the matter is that it is kinda just is bullshit for women and i understand why they think it's bullshit

Yeah exactly. This reminds me of a book im reading now "The Value of Others" by Orion Tarabahn. I'm mostly reading it just as part of my research on these topics, but it fits almost perfectly with what you are describing. I understand the sentiment here, but also, look at how much of a victim mentality this gives to women and power this gives to men. You could make a similar list for men and how complex, contradictory and bullshit it is to deal with women and dating. I definitely agree that it isn't fair and women are told way too many conflicting messages that is likely confusing as fuck. But also, on some level, can they not stand on their own feet and not be subjected to whatever labels are being thrown at them?

True, because what men find attractive and what women find attractive are different so this might work in "worse looking" women's favor. Because women typically find personality, status, presence, energy more attractive than looks. Men highly value looks. This makes sense evolution-wise. Seems like an assumption here that quality guys can't meet a woman on the street. Why do they have to be limited to her social circle? I agree most will probably be junk mail but i don't think it's fair to say public approach = low quality guy. That limits her a lot, plenty of beautiful couples meet at a subway, cafe, bar, park, gym, whatever. Plenty of toxic horrible relationships come from people in the social circle, work environment, same yoga school, whatever. But I can understand the sentiment that it helps to act as a filter in general. Also, if a guy is approaching in public it's not likely his first time ever doing so, meaning he does it a lot. Fair enough, I understand what you are saying. I will say that learning "pick-up" or let's just say learning "attraction/dating skills" is essential for most men and will not automatically stunt their growth. That only happens if they become unethical and lost in that world. But for many it's an essential part of stepping into masculinity and being ready for a life partner. So many men commit too young and end up regretting it because they never went out there and tasted different flavors of ice cream. Similar to how you said women are not low on options/ attractiveness,-men have 0 if they don't take action and learn how to be attractive. And make no mistake women can be absolutely brutal with their filtering, labeling a guy as "ick", etc. Lastly, I think the discernment is important, but can go too far. Similar to a guy going too far with his pick-up and becoming Peter Pan, a woman going too far with her red flags and list of requirements can become what I'll call a "Deluded Goddess" this is a woman who has placed such a high ideal on her potential partner that no man let alone human can fulfill, leaving no room for human imperfection, that she just ends up alone. I can think of countless women who do this, and guess what, they are all alone and single and have been for years. Cute women too. Example- today i was talking to my female friend at a cafe and asked her what her requirements are for a partner, she went off about an ideal man who can hold "pure perfect presence, guard her from any penetrative looks in public with a simple glance, hold her through all her chaos and emotion no matter what, etc" I then said "have you ever found a man like this?" and she said "No, never. We're talking about the DIVINE MASCULINE here" Yeah...Good luck with that one

Actually it's super fascinating, because it's the same woman in every profile, and even in the tomboy one she shows clevage, so we can rule out attraction. The men were choosing based on who was the most likely to sleep with them with the lowest amount of effort or investment based on those personality types. Crazy I also think of all the guys, Vamp attracted the highest quality ones. They had style and vibe, TomBoy mostly attracted immature horny 20 year old gamer guys, Conservative girl got the absolute worst - red neck conservative guys, girly girl got guys basically just throwing money at her and gym bros (a reflection of the male version of stage orange) and I would say Vamp was the most "sophisticated woman" of them all.

I just finished the video, I think it's pretty fascinating. Would be better with more data though, also we have to factor in the creators bias but she seems pretty level headed and aware. Personally, I would've gone for the Vamp girl, I think women who are into philosophy and feel free to be edgy and a bit outside the box and embrace their dark side are hot af. The girlie girl would be a maybe because it's super stage orange and materialistic but they can also be cool and hot. Fuck no on the conversvative religious girl. And a major fuck no on the tomboy. I think the tomboy winning is telling because it just proves how many low maintenance low effort guys are out there and how they actually are afraid of interacting with feminine women because there is less of a threat. So she got the most engagement, imo. They see it as a girl they can play video games with and have low investment casual sex with. That's probably why the conservative girl got last, because those girls are high investment for sex, getting into a christian rural girls pants is difficult. That's also probably why girly girl was 3rd, they also are high maintenance and difficult to sleep with. This also proves why Vamp was 2nd, she seems more open sexually and finally why tomboy won , she seems the lowest difficult, most easy to have casual sex with. My theory from this video is therefore that it proves that men mostly care about sex, not commitment (until they are ready), that was their prime focus in the swipes

for sure, i think it's a little cartoonish to think there is either a provider cuck , or fuckboy lover who she cheats on the provider with. There are definitely men who are can be alpha leaders and committ to one woman, i just think it wasn't typicaly in our evolution, they usually had at least a mistress or something. Also, from a womans pov those kinda guys are quite rare so there is a lot of competition and the likelihood they will end up with one is low, hence the cheating. But i agree, i think the ultimate female dream is hook in the alpha guy who has tons of options but chooses her

Now that i am seeing this from a female persepctive the whole idea of sleeping with women for casual sex, studying pick-up, or leading women on seems more and more disgusting and unethical, even if there is a strong male desire to have sexual success, novelty and quantity. I think deep down hardly any women truly want casual sex that will lead to nothing long term

Honestly the more i think about it, the more sense monogamy and marriage makes. We are wired for that, and any trying to get around it tends to not work and blow up. And I think it would be wise for women, especially when they are 22-28 to capitalize on their sexual marketplace value to secure the highest quality option IF they are wanting comitmment, marriage, etc. But they all seem to have to go through the fuckboy/ bad boy phase which wastes their prime years imo. But finding a good potential husband also requires discernment, and men in the dating market are rife with trickery and deception- shit some even study it, it's called Pick Up! And maybe they need to learn the hard way (fuck boys, pick up douches, liars, etc) before being able to discern which men are quality and which are bullshiters. But if i was a woman i would do my best to figure that out and screen men out at a young age, then probably marry a solid dude who was a bit older than me. That's kinda shitty though, so i get why women think it's bullshit, it kinda is. But then again maybe i wouldn't do any of this because as a man that sounds horrible. I would def be one of those women who fight that system and do my own thing. I'd probably be on that Reddit group (singlewomenbychoice) but i think i have that opinion bc i am a man....maybe. Or maybe most women feel that way. To get married young and be under the leadership of some fucking dude sounds like hell. But maybe if i was a woman i would think differently and want that, if i did want that, i would capitalize on my youth....because that's when i'd have to most Sexual marketplace power.

@Emerald The video is interesting but kinda hard to keep up with it, it's def made for a tik tok Gen Z audience, shifting frames and themes every 5 seconds. Also, i wanted to add, as the original discussion was around feminine energy and attraction- regardless of their discerning abilities, attraction is extremely important for women no matter what. Without attraction, there is nobody to chose from, and out of desperation women will have to chose lower quality options. My attractive female friends here in Bali get approached literally 2/3 times per day, and the less attractive ones, hardly ever, they still get approached but it's like once a week and usually lower caliber guys. over a year thats around 1,000 men vs 52, which one has a higher likelihood of having a quality guy in there? Men who have truly developed themselves, built their financial freedom, carved out a powerful authentic life, mastered their emotions, and (If they are at the time in their lives where they are ready to commit) are actually going to be the picky ones. Unattractive women will be filtered out immediately and not even given a shot. That's why feminine energy is important if you want a masculine partner. Men care about quantity and will lower their bar when it comes to sex only, but once they are serious about comitment and a life partner (which is what women want), they actually finally get to be the super picky ones (if they have a lot of options, resources, etc) as they should be if they have spent their lives developing themselves. The table flips a bit, in their 20's women are highly sought after and weild a lot of power in the sexual marketplace, but right around 30-35 the tables turn, men in their 20s who struggled a lot to get sex or serious attention from women (because women don't value youth and looks like men do, they value status, resources and emotional maturity) hit their 30's and if they took their life seriously and built wealth, status, competency, social skills then they actually have the power. If they didn't do any of those things, they are worse off than before. There is a reason beyond "beauty standard brainwashing and fat shaminig" that the cosmetic industry is in the billions. Survival and evolution doesn't fuck around, and there are universal patterns for what is seen as attractive or beautiful in women, from tribes living in the Amazon to a London Board Room (youth, waist/hip ratio, facial symetry, hair health, shiny eyes- all basically signs of youth/fertility) . And the women who end up with the men that have the most status and wealth, are...you guessed it- the young, feminine and beautiful ones, across the world and across time. Is status and wealth the most important factors in chosing a husband? Absolutely not, but it is what women tend to find attractive (many studies on this) and I think that men with status or wealth usually have other desirable traits, like intelligence, confidence, emotional mastery, leadership abilities, etc- I think they tend to correlate. So as a woman, I think it's still very important to be attractive and have men pursue you, since the standard in most places and across species is for men/males to approach. Not disagreeing with anything you said about discernment, that is very valid and important. But women still need to understand attraction, which i'm assuming they don't actually fully grasp when they are in their early 20s at their peak of attraction and when they can utilize it most.

That's actually really fascinating, thanks for sharing. I'll check out that video too. I do find though that a lot of my female friends have become so picky or have such a long check list of standards that they just end up not being in relationships or having intimacy. They also get approached fairly regularly, they have plenty of options. I can think of a few women i know who have been celibate for a year plus. Nothing wrong with it, but these are women in their prime years of being attractive and just aren't engaging because so many guys give them the "ick". Is it the guys fault too? Probably, it's probably a combination of things but I don't know how fair it is to just write guys off so quickly because of a percieved ick or red flag. How do they know they are actually sensing a pea under the mattress versus their minds tricking them? I mean if they can genuinely and truthfully find the pea , more power to them, but i think that's a tricky thing to do, so yeah i would agree that is an important skill or sensitivtiy to develop if it's in earnest. Personally, i can't stand guys leading women on just for sex only to ghost them later or something, they are ruining it for everyone in the dating market. I would agree with you as well about women being able to discern being related to having a good partner, women seem to really easily fall under spells and games played by fuckboys or guys who can be "Hot" but then lead on, lie, cheat with those women. But i think if a woman has too many of those expereinces she swings the pendellum too far and if a guy is maybe a bit anxious, or inconsistent or just not perfect in whatever ways she is scanning for she writes him off. I think there needs to be space for human flaws and also self deception or the possibility of misreading things

it's also challenging because it's literally at your fingertips. I could have high speed porn pulled up in 5 seconds at almost every moment of the day. It's like having a crack dealer in your pocket. And yes, like you said, the sex drive is as tied to us as the lungs are to breathing, you can't opt out of that. That's why sexual mastery is essential

good food for thought, thanks for sharing

It's all subconcious, on like a lizard brain level. The lizard brain knows nothing about sperm banks, condoms, or the pill.

These are really good points. The author of Red Queen goes into this in detail, but basically they find that women who do this want the support and security of a provider male while getting the genetics of a lover male. I'm sure there is some factor of excitement or thrill that leads to the orgasm, but what's interesting is that it is the type of orgasm that increases the chance of pregnancy. The also saw a very similar trend in birds and that 40% of the male sparrows were raising chicks that weren't actually theirs. The female sparrows were "having affairs" with the most dominant male sparrows, while using the "lower value" sparrows to be the providers and protectors of those children. Pretty fucked.

Sure, i don't disagree with you that women need to be discerning and sort men out. But I would argue that women already do this "disgust factoring" with their laundry list of red flags and ick factors, which is why they are so picky and why so few men actually get sex, a problem that is only getting worse and leaving more women and men lonely, bitter, and frustrated. I also don't think women shouldn't have a life purpose, something they are excited about, their own independence, etc. I for one do not want to be anyone's fucking charity case and pay for all their meals etc, or they have no intelligence, independence, art.

Yeah, that checks out. It's a brutal cut-throat dating system and definitely not a place I would look for love or a commited girlfriend. That's just for Rio though, girls in Sao Paulo can be way more "homey" and I had a girlfriend in Pipa who was solid as fuck and also hot as fuck. The sex with Brazilians is the best i've had in my life, they are on another level

Man, Brazil is absolutely epic. I've dated and slept with the hottest girl of my life there. If Rio wasn't so dangerous I would potentially live there, hottest baddest chicks by far. I am in Bali now and can say it absolutely full of beautiful women who are open to dating and sex. The only thing is a lot of them seem interested in serious dating, like long term comittment, which is kinda confusing to me. But nonetheless the ratio here is wild and the women are top tier.

Just some general pick up advice, always include the friend and do not isolate her like that. It is a surefire way to fail

Again i don't see how any of this is negative at all. It sounds like you are growing a spine and not putting up with disrespectful bullshit or being too much of a people pleaser

There is clearly a better one to be here.