BlessedLion

Sure, you are somewhat limited by genetics, but it's far less than you think. Plenty of people have overcome their genetic limitations and crushed it in domains they were told they'd never excel at. The universe definitely rewards persistence in life, this is limiting belief for sure.

@Emerald Also, I think it's helpful to think of relationship formation as an equation. Here it is (at least for men) Scenario 1: Tom is a quality guy and sees Angel and thinks she is cute, he is past his player phase and is ready for a serious relationship (he is in a rare window where he is actually ready to exclusively commit to one woman), he goes up and starts talking to Angel to see what else is going on there, if they have chemistry, etc. Depending on how Angel is, her vibe, compatability, personality, etc, he will either keep dating her or (if he has high integrity) walk away knowing that there isn't a long term option there. If he has low integrity he might lead her on and sleep with her only to ghost once he got what he wanted, That's where Angels discernment and intuition needs to kick in. Scenario 2: Tom is a quality guy ready for a relationship, he sees Sarah, a below average looking woman. He gives her a friendly smile and continues his stroll through the park. Instead of seeing a man being physcially attracted as some toxic filter that women need to sort through, it's more like the gateway for anything to form.

Hmm, what you are saying is landing in a certain way. The beautiful woman is going to have more guys coming to her solely because she is beautiful, therefore making it harder for her to discern their intentions, honesty, and if they like her personality. But I still think people sort themselves quite rapidly and figure out and understand their general "window" of attraction, so then they adjust for that and it becomes relative, and an average woman will be a score for a less than average looking guy. He is still very much factoring in her physical looks, no guy or girl doesn't do this. I still think lower than average (uglier) women struggle to attract the types of men they want. We can't separate beauty from liking a woman or her personality. Even my female friends will say it's a factor for their attraction. If a guy has a 9 personality but is a 3 physically, they won't want to date him and will friend zone. We can't seperate these things, as idealistically as we'd like. Maybe some people can, but that's not the norm, and it's certainly not the norm for men. They also have less power in the relationship dynamic. This is undeniable. A very beautiful woman weilds much more power in a relationship than an ugly one. Because she has something that a lot of people value, this is just economics. Your peacock theory even proves it, people want to be the more attractive partner because there is an inherent power in that. The reason an average woman doesn't want to date a 10 physcially guy is because there is too large of a power imbalance there. If you remain more attractive than your partner then this gives you a certain power over them, especially for a woman because men value looks more than women do.

He was always sorta unhinged, and i don't really enjoy criticising other peoples work, but i keep up with him to see what he's up to. Some of his latest thumbnails: "The 13 heavens are real" "Jesus was half alien" "The Fake God Running Reality" Seems like he's really gone of the deep end of the psychedelic alien world. It should be a warning of epistemic irresponsibility, fantastical thinking, and misusing psychedelics. He is very stage purple and stage blue in a lot of his models and ideas. He used to be sorta grounded but now it's just totally wacky and has nothing to do with consciousness work.

Yeah i gotta admit Leo's work is another level of quality. It totally changed my life just because of the synthesis of different points of view and timeless principles he carries. Also, to this day, the book list just astonishes me, idk how he found and filtered through some of the best books on the planet on major topics but idk if i would have found those myself. Also, Leo introduced me to Ralston, who also is in a league of his own. Ralston taught me how to think, stop suffering, and attain mastery by dropping my ego and getting to the core of what works in any field or domain, not what i want to work or what i think should work. It gives me this ridiculous advantage over other people for whatever i want to pursue. Now i live life in a whole different lane than most people who struggle with survival, emotional and sexual needs i can pursue what interests me and not take the survival aspect of life so seriously, and actually kick ass in those too. I'm also grateful for my mentor Sahajanada , who taught me what the spiritual heart, and love aspect of God/Reality is. No matter how deep i go into game/attraction/evolutionary theory, or business world, or any feild. I am always aware of Love and God, which science and biology tries to reduce all of reality down to an equation or evolution, not making room for the mystical. I had another mentor in my early 20s, Justin, my therapist, who helped me through the most turbulent of emotional difficulties and introduced me to meditation and mindfulness, he didn't just plop me on a bunch of pills and shit. Dude saved my life in many times of crisis. Overall, I've been beyond gifted with the men who have shown up in my life as mentors and helped me navigate the confusing waters of life. And interestingly many of them share the same general conclusions about life and how to live. I try to be that mentor for others now, but i'm not nearly as big or recognized. I don't really care though , i do it for the spirit of the work, whether 100 or 100,000 listen to what i have to say. I used to think this forum was full of people whining and talking immature bullshit, but now I see people who are actually embodying and have integrated this work in their own unique way, which is inspiring to see. We are very lucky to have stumbled upon this work. Thanks Leo

I agree with you here. I think for men attraction skills are more important than sorting skills and for women it's vise versa. I have an unrelated question for you , as I am gathering research on this and asking my female friends. But how important are physical looks to women? Like if a guy is a 9 but he is awkward, cringe, unconfident, etc will he still have a chance? Versus a guy who is a 4 physically but is confident, fun, safe, intelligent. And how important is status to women? I agree with that. I also am curious why partners have similar physical attractiveness, because it goes agains sexual evolutionary theory, like if "men value youth/beauty and women value status/wealth" then wouldn't there be a bunch of 50 year old rich men walking around with 20 year old beautiful women? Yeah, but thats' Florida jk But seriously, again that's the relative best those guys can do. Attraction is relative, so in their eyes she is an absolute dime. They see her as the hot young 20 year old. Attraction is the initial context for anything else to form. If i spend enough years on a deserted island and Delores shows i'm up....I'm game haha. Fair enough, maybe we are just looking at different metrics, currently i am in a phase of studying sexual attraction, the sexual market place and dating dynamics so maybe it's different. Also, I was thinking about it, and I don't have the belief any of this has to do with a loving partnership. I think 2 "ugly" people are still able to love as fully and deeply as anyone else. This was more a discussion about attraction and the optionality/power that comes with that. And i still stand by my statement that more attractive women have a higher leverage in relationships and get to enjoy more variety in optionality, allowing them to find the best possible option for their goals and standards, whereas uglier woman might have to settle more or put up with worse behavior (if they want a relationship) - and that the reason for men approaching , from rich ceo to Old Joe and Bob, is because they want sex and find whoever they are approaching sexually attractive. That is all relative, so the reasons behind the approach and interest (at least the initial interest) doesn't change. Does the woman in the second video really have an advantage in the dating world to Giselle (first video)? Is she really going to get better options?

Crazy stuff, he's like functionally unhinged as fuck as i feel like he is surronded by yes men who just fuel his delusions. Also, i feel bad for his wife, like he's totally brainwashed her

Definitely. I have a YouTube channel where i've shared some of those insights, like writing i find speaking about and modeling these things to take the learning to a whole new level. Check it out if you'd like:

I've been synthesizing sexual evolutionary theory (Red Queen, Sperm Wars) / Dating Theory (Value of Others, Dating Essentials for Men) / and Male/Female psychology and difference (Male Brain , Female Brain, Different) and it's been such a beautiful synthesis. I am having an intellectual orgasm daily just from the synthesis and understanding that is happening! And that's just attraction. Next. year i'll be diving in Tantra and Relationships, going deeper into this dynamic in a sustained and heart centered way.

Just watch the first 5 minutes of this and try not to throw up

Attraction, Sexuality, Dating between the sexes. Been going super deep into this topic, solely for the sake of understanding it for it's own sake but also enjoying "the laboratory" as well Been mind blowing, and honestly essential

@Emerald Key note on this response; i typed responses to different sections you had written. Like "Quoting" them, but the stupid forum crashed and luckily i copied what i had written but there is no responses to what you had said earlier. I hope it still makes sense: A worthy opponent you are Emerald. I appreciate that! I am trying to run your perspective through my mind without my filters and beleifs, but i still struggle with your perspective. How are we defining "high quality"? I feel like the old grandma is getting the scraps. I see the sentiment of what you are saying but it doesn't align with reality, that is just not the world we live in. If you ever talk to a single woman in her 70s very few of them are actively dating because the options that are left over are just awful. It is very hard to find love again after a certain age- that isn't random. My older female friends are struggling a lot because the options that they have are not (let's just say not "top of the line"). The top of the line options are pursuing young beautiful women. I saw a netflix show about old people dating around and it only lasted one season bc none of the couples ended up together. like 0, and that was only people in their 50s. I have female friends who are less attractive and they definitely just end up settling with unimpressive guys who either treat them poorly or are just kinda wimps. A young model is going to have a swamp of men sure , but within that swamp is a line of men at their physical and mental peak ready to commit, give her a great life, devote themselves to her and for better or worse treat her like a Queen (the clean water in the swamp). The Granny is really getting better water or a higher swamp to clean water ratio? If she (the model) is Stage Green, she can marry the yoga teacher who started the school she's at. If she is Stage Orange, she can find a wealthy, intelligent husband who she can pursue her material and success oriented goals with. If she is Stage Blue, she can marry the guy who runs the Church sermons and leads the community. She can still find chemistry and compatibility, and on top of that get resources , status and lifestyle. Why? Because Men value beauty. The men who can give her the life and pursuits and excitement she wants will not entertain dating her if she is 80. It's not that men only care about beauty, but it is the context for them to start a romantic interest. The Granny stands 0 chance of getting a man like that. Why is it such a big deal to see a super beautiful woman with a broke loser? Because it veers so far from the norm, it is so rare! Same for seeing a succesful, charismatic, powerful guy with a troll. In all these examples the model is getting the highest quality men on the market. Women are attracted to this kinda shit, point blank. Again we are looking at the real world and not some ideal. Any woman acting like she doesn't care about a guy having influence, respect, social skills, poise, is lying (imo). Sure, some narcissist awful men will be in that group but it's not like ugly women are automatically exempt from shitty, bad intentioned guys. They may even be more suseptible to ending up with them because they have less options and are more desperate for the intimacy (like my unattractive friends), whereas a beautiful woman can more easily walk away from bullshit behavior. She has more cards to play. If i was a woman, i would definitely prefer being very beautiful even with all the bullshit that comes with it, and being able to sort out who i want to end up with through a catalog of men pursuing me. I don't think it takes that much intelligence and skill to smarten up with this. It's really just emotional mastery. Beautiful women get incredible experiences, opportunities and special treatment handed to them on a platter, in the fucked up world we live in this is probably an advantage and better overall for most. Sure an uglier woman may get lucky and take that challenge to learn humbleness, wisdom, spirituality , and be geniunely more happy in life etc, but most will just suffer the disadvantages of being ugly. The young model is going to have healthier, wealthier, stronger, better looking, more socially skilled, more competent options. The Grandma is not getting Prince Charming. I've come to the conclusion your perspective on this particular point is simply wrong. Attractive people have more power in dating and life in general, a young attractive model will have much more negotiation power, optionality and ability to find the best partner for her individual wants and needs. She can basically tell a guy point blank "if you aren't commited, i'm out" whereas an ugly woman will need to sleep with him and get pulled along before having negotiation power, unless she dates down, whereas then she will have the power, but will dating more desperate men, who yeah, might see her as an angel because their only other option is their right hand. Sure, the model will have to "Sort through" more "junk" but women are probably pretty good at that anyway. <12 hours ago, Emerald said: What you have to understand is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry wants a hot women. And many of them just want higher status among male peers or to feel validated by having an attractive woman attracted to them.> I think you underestimate how much men value youth and beauty. Of course, it isn't everything. But as a woman, i feel you have a bias - becuase women value that less. They didn't need to look as much for fertility signals, men did. This is millions of years of evolution in the making, it's not some shallow thing. Men want young beautiful women for it's own sake. The status thing is a factor but much smaller than actually having the woman, they are genuinely just attracted to her for it's own sake and it drives us insane. There's a reason porn is such a massive and addictive industry, it's pure unfiltered female youth and sex, no status symbol in jerking off to porn. <12 hours ago, Emerald said: But the grandma has 100 men interested in her... and probably 20 are genuinely interested in her as a person.> The body and physical beauty comes with the person, they are a package deal. You can't just seperate the two. These old men are still factoring that in. If she is suddenly an old grandma who is 300 pounds overnight, the men interested in her has now dropped to 5 as great as personality might be. <12 hours ago, Emerald said: There just aren't as many ulterior motive for wanting to court a granny.> For an old man, he likely still sees beauty in the granny relative to the people around him and the options he has. Nothing has changed. The ulterior motive is that the only other option is to die a celibate <12 hours ago, Emerald said: So, if Old Joe is bringing Old Betsy flowers, he's probably really interested in her.> Or he is lonely and horny and that is his best relative option. People tend to sort themselves out quite rapidly in the sexual marketplace. And if Old Joe suddenly has a 20 year old model who is similar in personality to Old Betsy interested in him, he is going to start dating the model. And the model can make all sorts of wacky demands that Old Betsy can't. <12 hours ago, Emerald said: But if there's a very attractive 25-year old model... she's going to have a bunch of guy chasing her around for all kinds of ulterior motives, like sex, status among other men, trying to redeem his self-esteem in his own eyes. There's no way that the ratio is the same. That's why beauty is a liability that must be compensated for with extremely ruthless sorting, as beauty is like an email inbox of a wealthy person with no spam filter.> It sounds nice on paper but is fundamentally disconnected from reality and sexual dynamics, which is a brutal place. But i prefer to look it in the face, painful as it may be sometimes. Idk maybe we just live on different planets but i see it differently and data and real world truths definitely show a different story. Old Granny isn't magically getting a better ratio, it's just adjusted for the men who know their place in the sexual marketplace and what they can realistically get. Again, they aren't going to her by the greatness of their character and sweet hearts. You are basically saying , Because Granny is ugly, the men who pursue her are doing it from a better place. And because the model is hot she is only getting pursued for her beauty. My argument is that it's relative. The men have the same motives, they are just adjusting for what they think is within their reach. Attraction comes first, liking her personality comes second. The men pursuing Granny likely think they can get something from her that would be impossible to get from the model. And let's just say you are right.... Granny has a more clean water to swamp ratio, because those men are going to her for reasons that might be unrelated to her attractiveness. But the quality of the clean water is still kinda murky and maybe not even good for her or neccesary. And that Young Model has a terrible clean water to swamp ratio, becuase every guy in town is pursuing her for her looks, but the clean water is cleaner and she can easily build a dam to surrond herself with the clean water (social circle) and the clean water can offer her a lot of things she needs and wants, like building a family and being supported for that. Attraction = Power. Period. I ask myself....What would ever make me want to date an ugly woman? And i'd have to say it would be less genuine than if im pursuing a beautiful woman. If im dating a beautiful woman i'm likely more genuine in my interests in a relationship and equal playing feild and her as a person, i'll be more enthusiastic about her needs and bring my best self to the table and be more flexible because we have a more leveled sexual marketplace value, is that superficial? Maybe. But for me to date an ugly woman there would either have to be an amazing sexual chemistry where she never says no (still in my interests) and i would also enjoy having a power advantage in the relationship, that i would exploit if i was a bad guy. Or a grandma if she had some huge inheritance i could benefit from. So the truth is , the intentions are not neccesarily more pure just becuase guys are dating down. I cannot say in ernest i would date a truly ugly woman just because she had a great personality. Plenty of beautiful women fit my compatability and chemistry. I would feel slighted in some way, if i dated an 80 year old grandma it would feel wrong no matter how great our chemistry and compatibility was, i would feel like i was getting the short end of the stick because fundamentally my attraction and sexual marketplace value is much higher than hers. Like buying a Benz for $500. Its a rip off, and on some level we all know this. And most men would probably agree with this. How many 35 year old millionaires do you see dating 80....no let's even say 50 year old women? Let's look at reality here. Its probaly less than .1 %. There is a sexual market place and goods are exchanged based on their value. A 35 millionaire CEO knows he has a high marketplace value. I would also argue that beautiful women do have filters for spam like a rich guy does with his email. Many of them are unaccesable and locked into social circles and groups that most men can't access. You think Instagram DMs matter or work at all for these women? They have 10,000 unread messages there that will never get opened daily. I genuinely appreciate the conversation though. And i agree with you that discernment is more important for women than attraction. In fact i see it like this: Men need to improve their attraction skills (or else they are fucked and no one is coming to save them) Women need to improve their discernment skills (or else they will get played and tricked and just used for their looks) <12 hours ago, Emerald said: she's going to have a bunch of guy chasing her around for all kinds of ulterior motives, like sex, status among other men, trying to redeem his self-esteem in his own eyes. > How do you know Old Joe isn't just doing this with the only option he's got? <12 hours ago, Emerald said: There's no way that the ratio is the same. That's why beauty is a liability that must be compensated for with extremely ruthless sorting, as beauty is like an email inbox of a wealthy person with no spam filter.> We can all look at examples of women dating a millionaire narccist and getting tricked or fucked over, but there are also plenty of other women who end up living a higher quality of life and in a better situation because they optimized their beauty and locked in a solid man with it. They can use their beauty to find a more compatible, better chemistry option and have more power in the relationship dynamics. More of the ladder too. Women are smart, they learn quickly, and most of them figure it out, it's survival and evolution at work. I get what you are getting at, but to say beauty gives women absolutely no advantage and is even a detriment in the sexual and dating marketplace is wildly false. Like it's so false that i can't believe i'm still talking about it. I think anyone would rather have more options they can sort through than less "more genuine" ones. A young beautiful woman is the most powerful person on earth in a certain sense, and can change her life situation drastically for the better with her beauty, parnership quality included. I can't help but feel like a guy who is going for an uglier woman is doing so because that's his only option, it's not because he sees something special in her. Overall, i think you are missing a fundamental dynamic. And I think you are more likely to have good chemsitry with an alpha male because they have better social skills, charisma, empathy, etc than a wimpy autistic type guy who will be problematic to live with. That’s usually the options ugly women are left with, they aren’y getting Prince Charming. Not that high status men can't be psychos, but men who have low options aren't except for the same fucked up traits as all of us. Whew...my head hurts.

Same i use it to post but absolutely hate the app, it's full of garbage and has been detrimental to my efforts to quit porn. It's basically a soft porn junk machine. At the same time, it's a powerful tool to share ideas and I get a lot of satisfaction from sharing my work (Lions Heart YouTube) there

Last thing about the needles and haystacks- it's not like a woman with a smaller haystack somehow has a better ratio of high quality to spam options. She still has to sort out the hay and find the needle. Also, the size of the hay stack should correlate to amount of needles. For example; young model has 1,000 courters, of those 25 are potentiall solid husbands (2.5%) 90 yo grandma has 100 courters of those 2.5 (round up to 3) are potential solid husbands (2.5%) It's not like grandma has 100 courters and 25 of them are legit husbands. Or are you saying that they are? It's not like the guys going for uglier women are somehow more committed and not playing games, they just aren't having success with beautiful women. If it were up to them, they would be on dates with more beautiful women. it's not like out of the goodness of the heart and great character they are talking to 2s and 3s

Why is attention from being attractive automatically "low quality men" I almost feel like you are swinging the pendellum too far, maybe because you used to think "Men only want me for my beauty, that is my only form of value in a relationship" (which i agree is incorrect) to this now "beauty means nothing and has no value and is even a liability" I think Natasha's pov is more level-headed tbh I agree, pre-pick up time was much more innocent and "human" we could say. But i'd argue on some level the dynamcis were still at play. It's like how people use grammar without consciously knowing all the rules of grammar. These same dynamics of beatuy, status, were very much in play, even being goofy at a club and dancing up on a girl. The difference now is these dynamics have been studied and hyper analyzed by some pretty clever minds and men and women are exploiting them for personal gain. That is the red-pill in it's more tactical forms. Orion Tarabahn is the poster child for that shit. Yes but some men have a smaller desert and some women have a larger swamp. A larger swamp is likely to have more clean water in it.

A lot of this comes down to high status traits, it's not just some random thing, and his level of investment will likely correlate to her beauty and how attracted he is to her. If a woman was a fan of say, Led Zeppelin, and went on a date with Robert Plant she would likely delude herself to think they had incredible chemistry, he was totally invested (or at least could be in the future if she slept with him enough times), and of course she admires him, and that they have a super deep connection and speak each others langauge. Why? Because he is high status based on her values. Unless he totally bombed the date, there is little he could do to mess that up. Similar to how a guy will do the same shit if he is a 50 year old divorcee and goes on a date with a 20 year old OF model. He will walk away feeling like they are soul mates. This happens all the time.

That's the mistake that I would agree with. Thinking the guy is only interested in sex. But as Natasha mentioned too , the nuance is the sexual attraction as a bridge then you can discern if he has better qualities or is interested in you as a person or you have chemistry or whatever. Sure i would agree, if a couple forms solely on the basis of some kind of exchange (like Orion Tarabhn would advocate) of Resoucres/Status for Beauty , then she will easily leave him for the next higher status guy and he will divorce her for the younger model, which there will always be, if they don't grow and connect on any other qualities. And obvious as this may seem, many people do use this strategy and yes, it's unwise, because it's almost like an unconscious non-transparent negotiation that has happened "you be my trophy wife arm candy, i'll put you in Benz" Yes, I'd agree, on the basis that she doesn't have dsicernment skills Is it superficial though? I think we should be careful about labelling this as superficial. It's like labelling mens attraction to youth, curves, and beauty superficial. I believe we have deep evolutionary wiring for being attracted to these things and if we are honest with ourselves we care deeply about it. If a guy is anxious, not respected by anyone and basically a wimp, then the context for attraction is gone just like how an 90 year old grandma doesn't have a context for attraction. No matter how comitted a guy like that is (or how horny for casual sex a Grandma is) no woman (or man) will want it. Now I'm not saying every woman is secretly a gold digger, but status and wealth usually equate to character. Think about it. Even if she doesn't care about a rich guy, like a girl in Bali or another Stage Green environment, even a hippie commune living off-grid. The higher desired males will be the ones with emotional stability, intelligence, social skills, leadership qualities, strength, resiliance, passion, spine, etc - it just so happens in the modern world that equates to wealth so i almost feel like actual money is just an indicator of a mans competence because usually rich men (espeically self-made) don't just get there without having seriously powerful qualities like that. But equating money to strong internal characteristics is problematic in a tons of ways that i don't agree with. We will just have to agree to disagree here then. I don't disagree with you about the discernment skills needing to be sharp as a tack for women, if i've gotten anything from this exchange it's the importance of that for women, so thanks for that. But I refuse to admit that attraction and beauty has 0 use for women, even in finding their ideal husband. My logic is more beauty = more potential mates = more high quality filtering = more likelihood to land the best option for her specifically. Kinda like house shopping i'd rather have 1,000 houses to sort from to find my dream home than 52.

Yep, good points. And expanding on your example, just because most real estate agents are doing evil shit, doesn't mean real estate (casual sex) is bad. Maybe you find an eco friendly (ethical) real estate solution. Will you maybe make less money? Sure. But your homes are more sustainable, cozy and fulfilling then just raping the market for personal gain at all costs (tricking /lying to women into sleeping with you then ghosting). I also look back at the lovers i have had in life and many of them are still great friends of mine. And yeah I think the women who do best are the ones who embrace male sexuality like Natasha was saying. Just like how men have to embrace and adapt to female sexuality. As Artistotle says "If women didn't exist, all the money in the world would mean nothing." It's tongue and cheek but I guarantee most of the things men do, they wouldn't do, if potential sex or sexual marketplace value was off the table.

Exactly! We have to be honest about what attracts males, which is mostly looks. And there is nothing wrong with that, it doesn't make men shallow, it's just how we have evolved. In a sense, men can't help it, similar to how women can't help what they find attractive. "Attraction is not a choice" As David DeAngelo says. Men have evolved to look for cues of youth and fertility, the ones that didn't died out over time, so curves, flowing hair, facial symetry are what genuinely peak mens interest. Whereas for women , the criteria of what attracts is different for their evolutionary reasons. So with that knowledge, utilizing your attraction will help you have more options, of which you can then use your discernment skills and filter out bad options. If you go to a club in a tight black dress and push up bra, versus a baggy sweater, you will have less courters (if any) to filter and chose from. And the courters that you do recieve while wearing sweatpants will mostly be thinking they can get some low effort non comittimal sex (Like TomBoy girl from the video experiment Emerald shared) Yes, I'd have to agree with everything you shared, and if i was a woman, this is the type of stragegy i would use, which is embracing male's sexual preferences. Think about it like this: Attraction is the context for content to unfold. You need to context of attraction for the content of different types of men to exist. They need to feel attraction to approach you and you to even be able to filter them out. Even if we have your perfect soul mate who is a solid character and great husband material, if you are a 90 year old grandma or go out in public wearing saggy clothes, you will never get a chance with him. Extreme examples but you get this jist of it.

Good analogy, and i'm really starting to see your point on women not needing to worry so much about attraction. Yet another part of me is not so sold yet, if we look around, women are obsessed with being attractive! Is that just for themselves? Is it for other women (I've heard that theory) I can't help but think if a Woman walks into a bar with a slim black dress exposing the side of her legs and hips (fertility cues), long wavy hair with extensions (again, health & fertility cues), and her breasts in a push up bra (you guessed it, fertility and youth cue) that this isn't for anything other than attracting men. So there has to be some serious import and value to that or else people wouldn't do it. A part of me still has the feeling that the most attractive women get the higher quality options. If we're looking at things like resources, a young beautiful will woman will have plenty of charming, confident, wealthy, men pursuing her, will some of those guys be tricksters and putting on a front? Absolutely! But she can hone her discernment (like you said) and chose a solid one. A 2 or 3.... I don't see getting many courting options from wealthy, social intelligent, powerful men. Now, some women don't care about money, power, wealth, status, which is great, because personally i think a lot of that shit is superficial except for a man having personal power and strength, social skills/status and financial stability, but that's not the majority. Also, notice how in your analogy the male birds are still fucked if they don't learn how to sing and dance and be colorful. So learning to attract (which takes practice and is a skill developed over time) ie "ATTRACTION SKILLS" is essential for them. Hate on pick-up as much as you'd like, but without some form of learning dating skills, men will be colorless birds squaking awkward songs and fumbling around trying to dance and absolutely no female birs will want them. Human attraction is a mating dance exactly like bird calling is.

I gotta agree here, I don't think we should castrate ourselves or guilt ourselves for having casual sex with women. It doesn't need to be "I'm either with my wife or i'm celibate" , nothing wrong with having lovers. To me, the disgusting fucked up thing is leading on and tricking a girl to open her heart, then abusing that vulnerablitiy to extract sex. And when you are honest about where you are at, it will in some cases lead to less sex, as a man that's just the pill you gotta swallow for being in integrity and not tricking women

I now see what you are saying here and that makes sense. Never thought of it like that but it makes sense. This i have to disagree with, because for a man to get results here he has to genuinely develop himself in a certain way. It's not the same for women, if a woman wants sexual / validation results all she needs to do is dress skimpy and act easy. That's why i see the development of sexual and attraction skills as a great mirror for men to develop themselves. And it can be done with integrity and ethics. Also, like i said, if they never learn these skills they are basically fucked- no one is coming knocking on a guys door begging for a date, he has to learn how to build attraction and have options or else he will become desperate. The main argument i would hold here again is the fundamental difference between male and female sexuality. As you stated earlier, women don't have problems with attraction and options, if it has legs-there's a guy who will fuck it. For men , it's not the same at all. Tons of men have absolutely no options and if they suck at confidence, flirtation, physical escalation, eye contact and generally being comfortable in their sexuality the will "ick out" 99% of the women they talk to- even if they've developed a great character. The sexual and attraction skills in themselves are their own thing that men need to develop. Also, i have a feeling that most women, when they sleep with a man, are actually usually interested in something deeper whether they will admit it or not. A man is okay having sex with a woman he could never see as a wife, i think for women it's not the same. Sure , that's a cool and level headed way to go about it. I like that you include room for some "Saltiness" (human imperfection) and weigh it with their good qualities. That's healthy.

It's the cost of having ethics and growing a spine as a man. You get less sex, but you can look at yourself in the mirror. That said, sometimes there are women who genuinely are in a phase of being open to casual sex and you can go about that with a playful, respectful, kind attitude. No reason there can't be love there either.

Yeah, and you can't quite put your finger on it but something is off. I feel that way when i listen to Orion Tarabhn , he's selling a whole paradigm that is pretty powerful and a framework that is hard to break down- but fundamentally lacks heart

I think if a woman is on board with that and the boundaries/expectations are clear there is no issue. What i have a problem with is leading women on, being deceptive, especially when for the most part they don't want casual sex. Most of the women i talk to don't seem interested in that as they have already experienced it, like a phase. Sometimes they do, but i think that needs to discussed and clear before moving forward. Otherwise, there's no problem there at all.