Danioover9000

@An young being Which by definition makes it zen devilry, taking out of context a spiritual truth or spiritual techniques to be weaponized in another context. For example, LSD or psychedelic experiences in themselves are not Zen Devilry, but when people, say Charles Manson, uses it to further his cult like dynamics and control to influence his followers.

@bebotalk I actually agree with her dissing him back, and even making a dedicated YT Channel attacking HIM as long as he keeps making critiques and hateful videos of her. Justifiable here. Also agree that Penguinz0 is based as he's also benefiting from ripping off content being a reactor in a react community that normalizes theft of content.

@Juan If doxxing was not actualized, how do you know doxxing is worse than what JakeFilms has done? How is dedicating a YT Channel attacking and hating on SSSniperwolf, influencing her poll of future viewers and followers, reducing her potential followers, and going viral in attacking SSSniperwolf, less harmful than doxxing? I already granted that if they both communicated and talked out their disputes then the situation could have resolved. However, when JakeFilms dedicates an entire YT Channel to hating her, how are both going to negotiate a compromise if JakeFilms demands her to stop ripping off Tik Tok shorts, which makes up a good chunk of her income? If SSSniperwolf demands JakeFilms to take down that entire YT Channel joking and critiquing her, would he do it? Again, how is JakeFilms any less guilty than SSSniperwolf for attacking her career choice and going viral for atacking her? Seems like the potential range of harm is greaters than mere doxxing.

@bebotalk To reiterate, I am not justifying her actions of doxxing him, nor am I justifying his actions of smear campaigning her career choices. Both are very immature in this situation. I can agree not all forms of harm are equal nor quantifiable, as I said it's potentiality of harm of Dooxing versus potential of YT Channel falsely hating and critiquing you, it's in the actualization of those harms that we could discern the equality or differences of hierarchy of harm. For example, if you're whole career is YT, and I dedicate a YT Channel hating and critiquing you, and contribute to your slower growth because I'm influencing your future potential customers to not subscribe or follow you, how is that actualizing harm a lesser harm than doxxing, which almost nobody have taken action towards JakeFilms and his family, merely just sending hate mails to them? Say, from two potentialities, of him acting on posting hateful videos of SSSniperwolf, to SSSniperwolf acting on arriving at his location in real life and doxxing his address and house, comparing the two actualized actions and harms, yes I'd partly agree that her action could have greater more direct harm versus his action of posting hate videos about her and effecting her potential future viewers and followers, which is indirect harm. I don't know, to me intuitionally JakeFilm's actions being indirect and subtle harm to her followers is greeter in danger as that's him effecting her income earnings. I am not aware of any other harm that effected JakeFilms from the doxxing, as nobody has taken real world action to harass him or his family yet, other than hate mail. I have to take MoistCritical's opinion with salt because of this: Doxxing being legal or not is important, if it's legal then JakeFilms can't legally sue her, if it's illegal he can.

@bebotalk But the USSR and Mau's party were secularist countries, that overthrew the ruling monarchs, and were first to legalize abortion and other safe sex methods. Russia is first to do so, and that had generational effect that we see it today, that Russia has a problem with it's own homogenous populace, and declines in it's own birthrates in it's native country, in comparison to Ukraine's increasing population, which effects manpower in military. Yes, both China and Russia doesn't have the neoliberalism and capitalism ideology and western values, but it's westernized in terms of being secular countries. I cite Japan because Japan didn't have such a birthrate decline pre Pacific war, it's after the Americans won with nuclear bombs, and after Japan had to unconditionally surrender and adopt America's western values like egalitarianism and feminism that we start seeing this decline. Yes, the work culture is toxic and that capitalism and neoliberalism also plays a part in the birthrate declines. So is South Korea, I cite South Korea because it's now an American westernized secular country, having egalitarianism and feminism from America as Sough Korea is another key part of American hegemony and geopolitical power, because with America's military there close by, this effectively cuts off access to the sea and Islands from North Korea and China, yet the secularism from America and the capitalism has negative effects to the human flourishing of South Korea. If America wasn't present, and didn't transfer their western values onto Japan and South Korea, and isn't contributing to their decline in birthrates, what else could be? Seems like wherever America's interests and placements are, that country experiences a decline in birthrates. Now I'm not so anti feminist that I want women to be second class citizens generally, I'm pointing out that with feminism it inflates egotism in feminists, hyper individualism, that more women think they can just prioritize career and jobs first and family and marriages second. This type of thinking actually can be detrimental because there'd be a spike in female workers competing in some jobs and industries with average of male workers being there. That, plus immigration of foreigners trying to apply in those same types of jobs, doubles the competition for those types of jobs that the native population would have benefited from. The notion of women being second class citizens is also questionable because the majority of human history is autocratic and patriarchal, meaning that rights and laws were made by man, and enforced by men, so if all men decided that women should not have rights, what's stopping them from taking away their rights?

@bebotalk I have to say something here about Great Britain. Yes, Great Britain has controlled a third of the world, and yes due to colonialism there were some atrocities and such when it created colonies on those Islands or lands. However, the negatives of being an imperial and colonial empire, doesn't outweigh the good Great Britain did for the world. 1. Great Britain, so far in my understanding of world history, only nation/country with a very staunch, very strong opposition to slavery, and has anti slavery indoctrination that dates back to William the Bastard(Conqueror when he became king of England) when William outlawed slavery trades and slave ownership in Britain after conducting the doomsday survey, which shows less than 10% then owned slaves. Outlaw IMO isn't altruistic motives, but out of fear that a competing lord would hire slaves on mass and promise freedom if they overthrow William, so more likely outlawing slave trade is power motivated. Also, while Great Britain did participate in the slave trade in Africa, it's marginal in comparison to the rest of the world, and even Africa's participation of the slave trade, selling their own people to Arabian masters to then be castrated later on. Great Britain did dedicate a few battle ships to patrol African coasts to hunt down these slave ships from Africa. 2. We're speaking the English language thanks to Great Britain. Oh, and if Britain won during the war of Independence in America, Great Britain would have outlawed and heavily sanctioned the slave trade there as well. The civil war later was mostly driven by economic competition from the North and South, not just because of differences in northern and southern culture but who gets the bigger slice of profits and control of slave industry. Therefore, if Great Britain won in the past, the civil war would have either been much later or squashed all together. I think that's it for now, maybe few more points would come up.

@lina Yes, this is zen deviliry.

The potential harm in a YT Channel relates to propaganda and reducing future viewers and followers of the targeted person. If the propaganda and smear campaign is that bad that it leads to censorship and cancellation, and even cyber bullying, harassment, doxxing and other hateful acts on SSSniperwolf, then Jakefilms is the cause of those potential harms of his dedicated Channel, as he's trying to manipulate popular opinion of her, see? Other YT Channels, for example Mr. Girl, was taken down by exactly this way, smear campaign by Destiny, and due to past troubles Nick Fuentes's dellow streamers decide to mass report Mr. Girl that YT took down his Channel. It's a coordinated attack that took his Channel down. Doxxing is a bit tricky as police and journalists dox all the time to tailor their questions to the interviewee. Should doxxing be illegal or heavily restricted when other jobs have the person doxxing?

@bebotalk What if, due to feminism, the increase in female workers is directly taking away your job opportunities? What if feminism imbues too much individualism into toung women they disregard relationships and marriage, even dating,and develop lack of commitment to the relationship? Due to feminism and egalitarianism in westernized secular countries, birthrates are declining in Japan, South Korea, Russia, China, the USA and other westernized countries that that country can't replace it's population within itself, thus having to source from theocratic 3rd world countries that can reproduce their numbers, which increases immigration. What if that increase takes away your job opportunities and increases prices of goods?

@bebotalk I did cover that situation here: Jakefilm's criticism may not be sexist, racist, bigoted or other, but he's borderline there, and again making a WHOLE YT CHANNEL ABOUT ONE PERSON, is cringe. Yes he can feel angry and have a reaction to her ripping off tik Tok vieeos, but that doesn't mean it's justified for him to hage and critic her with an entire channel about her. That's like a YT Channel dedicated to critique of and hating on Actualized.org. Another example is Destiny directing hie fanbase to dox and harass a woman in twitter for jokingly saying she'd pay money to anyone who can throw eggs at one or his live meetings. Is Destiny justified to command his fans to cyber harass and dox a woman over a joke, which he himself was a victim to in the past that got him banned from Twitch?

@Buck Edwards Skirmishes still happen in parts of Africa, yet no world war 3 in Africa, same with few parts of Asia, middle east, and even in eastern Europe involving gangs and freedom fighters, yet no world war 3 because scale is very small, and different types of conflict. Yes, it's important to consider the developmental factors at play, at least for argument's sake for contextualization;. Sure, there are two sets of possibilities for extinction level events: human caused, or nature caused. Human caused set is like nuclear warfare, bio engineered weaponry, cyber warfare, and so on. Nature caused set includes meteors/asteroid impacting earth and other celestial causes, volcano eruptions powerful enough to causal chain other natural disasters like tsunamis, earth quakes, and season to yearly long blocking of the sun, and other nature caused disasters that leads to extinction of the current ecosystem. To some extent we're doomed on both sets of possibilities. However, this doom and gloom mentality, or nihilistic realism or techno optimism to me is limited and impractical. More practical is philosophy, idealism, and naive optimism rather than nihilism and naive realism. At least with philosophy and idealism the person contemplates their LP, why they exist on this earth, and what should they do to contribute to this world, versus fantasizing about the dark ages or human extinction and steeping into nihilistic, self destructive thoughts.

@kenway @PurpleTree True, seems like that collective trauma still follows them to the present. This is one example of a collective ego shadow from a past stage red/blue society, experiencing the horrors of the holocaust, then Israel being a staunch stage blue society has to survive for itself. It's a case study of both Spiral Dynamics stages of development and Carl Jung's Architypes and shadow aspects just on the collective scale. It depends on other developmental factors, and this also involves stage blue societies. Sure. Just briefly, this whole Israel/Palestinian conflict is very tricky to deal with because if we negotiate with Israel and Israel shows weakness, then Israel would endanger it's own survival agendas to Iran, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and other middle eastern countries that are stages red/blue and some stage purple in that region. It's a literal culture war for Israel as Israel is itself a sovereign nation/country modernized and westernized, which makes it of higher development in comparison. Also, by negotiating with not just Palestine but all the other neighboring societies there of Islam majority, we have to be careful not to make them pacify and compromise too much or else Israel would keep expanding and taking lands from them, not to mention it's other geopolitical enemies could take advantage. It's a tricky issue so far for the past 80+ years resolving this Israel/Palestinian conflict, trying to get both sides to negotiate and compromise enough for peace but not too much that their own agendas and self determination is at risk.

@Buck Edwards Sure I partly agree it's not out of question, just that if it's more likely or less likely is probably where we'd disagree. I'd agree it could be not immediate. Not sure about considering the timeline with wars every few years, seems to be those are either border disputes or skirmishes, types of conflict mostly small scale that I wouldn't consider a full out traditional war and invasion. You could estimate and predict the likelihood, yet you're not the only one, and even some people try to predict Armageddon and keep on failing when it comes to the precise timeline and location, so in terms of probability I think that the ego and the collective ego is too selfish to just self terminate or terminate other egos, so it could easily be 50 years from now as the earliest, to some centuries later on. My main reasoning for 50 to 200+ years is that in 50 years scientists estimate that global warming would be so severe it could melt the ice caps, and with melting ice caps comes rising sea levels, and with rising sea levels comes shrinking of land mass available for living, plus increasing temperatures would effect weather patterns, and agriculture, induce famines and droughts more often, which would reduce consumption for a population which would lead to more conflicts over natural resources like land, biosphere and food production, hydrosphere and water, and atmosphere changes would increase migration to colder or warmer regions away from hotter or colder places. I also estimate at centuries because it's long enough to include some key events. And all this depends on developmental factors like Stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing/traits, 9 stages f ego development, Integral Theory's other lines of development from individual to sociological domains, and ideological beliefs indoctrinated by culture, family upbringing and information ecology, and our self biases and preferences so far in life. As Daniel Schmachtenberger often talks about in his podcast features, we haven't even consider nuclear technology, C.R.I.S.P.R and other DNA and gene splicing technology, environmental pollutions and issues brought on by carbon emissions via human technology, or even emissions from nature itself which would lead to other existential crises, and many other human advancements from technology to science to sociology, psychology and many other fields, each advancement comes with it's varying degrees of devilry and bad faith ideological groups with their own agendas wanting to weaponize each advancement to suit it's own goals at the expense of harming other parts of the system.

@jaylimix It depends how you look at this issue based on many developmental factors like Spiral Dynamics stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing/traits, 9 stages of ego development, Integral Theory's other lines of development in life and societal domains, and ideological beliefs indoctrinated by culture and family structure, and self biases and preferences. However, if you want to convince and persuade, your argument is faulty because it depends on one internet Guru's post modernist, moral relativist/subjectivist's interpretations of spirituality and non-duality and other religious teachings and self help teachings. Saying that 'your mother is not real' is not going to fly with the majority of the populace, as you'll be left making fallacies and appeals to ethos and pathos way more than logos, and reverse justifying from hidden assumptions that are faulty to begin with from a persuasion view. You could argue that it's fundamentally mind games, and it's all illusory, but you'll have to bring up neuroscience and explain through that and how the brain receives information via it's sense organs and through it's neural pathways and so on. However, to then jump to the Israel/Palestinian topic from that is even more damaging to your credibility and persuasion because it's a real life external event effecting lives in that region. To claim moral subjectivity in that case is weaponizing this post modernist thinking to downplay the severity of that conflict. It's not merely moral subjectivity when Israel has been expanding slowly for 80+ years, taking territory from Palestinians, reducing their rights overtime due to the ethnostate and Zionists in charge. That's not moral subjectivity, that's actually happened and happening in conjunction to this HAMAs war. It's not merely mind games when HAMAs launched it's attack past Israel's border, and it's not illusory from Israel's point of view to feel angered and outraged by HAMA's attack and taking hostages.

@Buck Edwards So you think world war 3 would happen in the next few decades? By few decades, you mean by 20 to 30 years? Okay, we'll wait 20 to 30 years, then come back here so you can tell us how world war 3 went.

Locked.

@Raze Sure although Onision is a bit worse than SSSniperwolf. All honesty I get why she'd dox Jakefilms and how she'd be feeling, but there are better ways to handle Jakefilms, like reporting every video that slanders her for misinformation, misleading titles and thumbnails, or other infractions she could use against him. Another would simply be ignore him, but that's risky becuase there's mounting PR damage and reputation lost if he's gonna keep on hating and critic videos on her. Doxxing seems like a really risky move and does escalate from her end. I'd honestly advice her to keep on reporting his videos or even channel and work with YT against him, and don't make a response video of him, don't even mention him in socials, just mention there's an online stalker from YouTube trying to defame and slander her. Any other choices like intimidation, blackmail, coercion or other dark manipulation tactics is not advisable as she's also a bit guilty of ripping off content herself. As far as taking this to court it's another issue, as I don't know enough if it's illegal or if there's a good legal case for her side. She can actually report his channel that's dedicated to hating on her as slanderous and harassing her, pretty sure YT would take that down in that situation.

@something_else Integral Theory people? Willing to guess it's immature stage green trolls and haters on the internet with a younger demographics and psychographics. As I said, I'm fine if it's too simplified and he preaches Spiral Dynamics to a wider, younger audience. It's an introduction, and now they know it's a thing in concept. Yes the tradeoff is like 'casting pearls before swine', diluting the teaching and modals by widening the niche and broadening to a wider target audience and higher risk of misunderstanding and stereotyping other groups via Spiral Dynamics, justifying demonizing and dehumanizing others. The question then becomes does the costs justify the marketing of this modal, and the benefits outweigh the costs? Same thing with Actualized.org, introducing this website and Leo Gura to a wider audience.

@bebotalk I'd argue making an entire YT Channel hating and critiquing one person is just as bad, if not worse as every video made in that Channel gets the algorithm to recommend that to viewers, which influences her potential viewers she could have gained to be much less, reputational damage so to speak, so I get her frustration. Doesn't justify her ripping off Tik Tok shorts, but she's human and a person found out a big name YT Channel is targeting you and hating on you and joking about you as one whole Channel I'd feel pissed, like stop scary away my future customers.

@bebotalk Fair enough. I did a body language analysis thread about Destiny and Mr. Girl's drama here: And found him both defensive and lying about the drama, so I don't trust him. The other guy ain't innocent either, and a narcissist, but after doing a body language analysis in his video on his site, that's genuine stress and defensiveness with lower probability of lying. Destiny's higher on lying, as he's a sociopath. I've outgrown Destiny as well so even though yes Destiny has some solid and reasonable political takes, it's without the gotcha moments and drama farming, hate when he jokes too.

@PurpleTree That's easy. North Korea.

@PurpleTree The worst types are probably the Zars monarchy from Russia and the French Monarchy before, as they didn't adjust quickly to feeding the needy, so they ended up building discontent and revolutionaries used that against them, and offed their heads. Also majority of imperialist China, and the Mongol horde. Not just funny hats, but steel masks too.

@Raze It's a good move, from an ideological survival standpoint. Spiral Dynamics will propagate through the information ecology we have, and this particular person's presentation of Spiral Dynamics, while a bit simplified and tailored to his bias and preferences, I think this interpretation from him and how he communicates this modal to a wider audience is a good thing. Does it have it's drawbacks? Yes, but at least in this way it's propagated and spreads to the minds of the listeners, and if some of them are serious in investigating this modal, and take their self actualization journey, they'll go down the rabbit hole. For now this is fine because you have to factor in the big tech companies and the negative effects that social media and Tik Tok has had for 10+ years in the internet, and how corrosive they are to attention, mental health, and so on, so this method of presenting the Spiral Dynamics modal for that type of audience could make the difference for some of those people, even if there's greater risk of misunderstanding, misinterpreting and misapplying the modal.

It's just such a tricky and nuanced situation. Even if I ignore and blacklist Destiny and people like him, that doesn't stop them from sickening the minds of their followers and fanbase. I tend to think the following scenarios of these consequences: 1. Normalizing dog piling and doxxing, that someone with a good argument or good refutation against Destiny, Destiny doxxes them and some of his fanbase dog piles and cyber bullies that person, even harassing them and sending letters to their work place, asking them to let off this person, therefore reputation damage and endangering their career path or work life. Even if I ignore a person, their followers and them still keep doing these low consciousness takes and continue spreading their ideology. The potential financial wealth from some money spent in donations, to attention and time lost is even more dangerous. 2. Relationships and family get negatively impacted, that some of those followers are spending too much time giving their attention and donations to people with an enclosed ideological echo chamber, and feed into this para socialization more and less time spent with real people relationships in the real world and more time in the digital. Not to mention again the negative personality and psychological effects these carry over into the real world. Even in an ideal situation, I ignore these streamers and online personalities and continue my LP avoiding such people perfectly, I will deal with such streamers and their followers in the real world, I have to deal with some people who have normalized immature mindsets from such online communities, normalized toxic behaviors and views of the world. I still have to interact with some people with massive short attention span, self entitlement, and inability to focus or be mature minded when talking or listening.

@Juan I find that the level of discourse that these online creators and streamers have is getting lower and lower, as we keep empowering big tech companies to make more addictive online content like with Tik Tok, increasing short attention span, narcissism, self entitlement, and sociopathic/psychopathic traits. The content creators take this neoliberalism/capitalism ideology on blind faith, and participate in this Game A playing field were we over value stage orange materialism, and transactional relationship via digital value of click rate and views meaning more monetization. The more time passes the more fake it feels. For example, in Destiny's case, when he's talking about the Israel/Palestinian conflict he doesn't mind being pro Israel as public enemy number 1 is HAMAS and Destiny get's to reframe and deflect, from any valid solid critic and argument in good faith, to bad faith uncharitable takes of Destiny's arguments as just the other side supporting HAMAS, get's to pivot to any refutation of Destiny's argument as terrorist sympathizers. Why? Because in the American culture, and western cultures in general they are a terrorist group. Problem solved, just kill the bad guys in Palestine and Palestine gets saved. No, it's a deeply systemic issue that goes as far as 80 years ago and much more, which started with the Zionists and alt right nationalists within Israel's upper class rule seeking an ethnostate. Even though the region in general had Spiral Dynamics stages purple/red dominant areas with some staunch stage blue countries like Iran and Egypt nearby, with their religious nationalism, Israel's slightly higher development, and the historical conflict between Judaism and Islam over a holy land territory land locks and conflict locks Israel with it's neighboring tribes and societies. Just the same when Destiny poisons the well with John Mearsheimer's argument for why the Ukraine and Russia conflict is the west's fault, instead of looking at his argumentation and deconstructing it, he just slanders and name calls John Mearsheimer via calling one of his sources a Nazi sympathizer, gets the mind slaying tactic, problem solved. This is clearly a deep systemic issue in the online community structures, how the internet is today, and big tech companies monopolizing on people's attention spans whilst reducing the grey matter in their brains with this corrosive social media platforms. No, it's not problem solved when your entire career relies on riling up the crowd and indoctrinating into them negative states of being and enforcing this para socialization. Doing so just enforces this echo chamber he has in his community of pursuing bad faith uncharitable and gotcha moments arguments rather than trying to solidly argue or even have a good discourse.