Bill W

Hi, This might be a non-starter for you....... My question is; Should I knuckle down with one approach and type of teaching for now (just so I can start putting some real work in, and getting better habits?) or should I continue with 'information gathering phase' and 'research' for now? I'm not looking for you to name one teacher, or book, or system necessarily but feel free to. I know information gathering and research will be on-going process in a way to keep myself openminded and hungry, but I fear I will use this an excuse to not start the real work. In my mind, I feel I don't really care what Enlightenment is, or isn't. For me it's all relative. I want to be more enlightened than I am now. I know this might not fit with whatever the favoured enlightment 'model' is. I'm chasing improvement rather than perfection/bliss. Some context below. I get easily bogged down in reading as much as I can, and taking ideas from literature to practice in real life. However, I seem to be always in 'information gathering phase', convinced that the next book, or teaching will be "the one" and set me on my way. For the last few months I've been getting my feet wet with basic Buddhist teachings. I'm also finding parts of the Bible incredibly uplifting, and much more practical than I thought the Bible would be. I don't know what I think about God. I'm not sure who God is or how God works. I (think) I believe at the minimum there is some Higher Power relevant and active in my life. I feel like I am looked after and that I am supposed to follow a path. With the thoughts I am conscious of, my immediate and primary goal is to manage my general fear, insecurities, to be able to better handle uncertainty, to better management resentments I hold against people, and to move away from my ego (as I understand my ego to be). To move away from animal instinct behaviour. I want to be cool, calm, and collected. Kind to others. Forget myself. Get outside my own head. My most cherished values at the moment seem to be around openmindedness and humility. If I can get these right I think other good stuff can manifest, such as compassion, forgiveness, gratitude and resilience. I have all these qualities to a degree, but I want more, and better still, I want to reflect these more in my behaviour.

How do we determine if it's in good faith with honest intent when receiving criticism? I guess some criticism could be given not in good faith and with a manipulative intent. It could still be a valid criticism (I.e. true and relevant). Some criticism could be given in good faith with an honest intent and be absolute bullshit or nonsense. Don Miguel Ruiz has a saying about speech that perhaps I can use with specific reference to giving and receiving criticism. He says your speech to another (which of course also includes your written dialogue) should be (a) true (b) useful and (c) timely. I take timely to mean relevant and appropriate to the circumstances. I also know the term 'truth' is always up for debate. Don Miguel Ruiz also says that we should consider the following agreements 1. Be impeccable with your word 2. Don't take anything personally 3. Watch your assumptions (he says don't assume) 4. Always do your best 5. Be sceptical but also learn to listen

I guess some people are prepared to spend more time and energy in going to great lengths to get their point or their belief across. People will then seem satisfied that they have "won" but the cycle will repeat the next day for them like Groundhog Day. That's what I see. That doesn't make it the truth. It's just my interpretation. I work full time and am a carer a lot of the time I am not at work. So by the time I have finished on my own development work I literally don't have time to go picking arguments with people who I deem "wrong". Although I am doing that very thing now perhaps. Anyway I'm trying to move in the right direction and there will be mistakes along the way and lots of contradictions from me. I accept that.

Is this just an example of monkey mind? Why would something be true just because Leo has said it?

At last count I think there are 3 similar threads about Leo all near the top of the list in terms of activity. He will just make an appearance soon and say "it's not about me". I think he would be right. This is about us. Not him. These are all our issues to bear and work through. What difference does it make about his intentions and beliefs. He is making suggestions. He is inviting people to believe his beliefs. An invitation, that's all it is. He is the result of his own programme and his own mind. Just one human among 7 billion.

So what we have here is people with different beliefs. No one can prove anything either way. People are searching for something that makes sense to them and something they can believe in. People sometimes word things almost like it's an established fact, perhaps the person has even convinced themselves already it's an established fact. It could be for them. As Don Miguel Ruiz would say... we are all the main character in our own film and everyone else including the other posters on here are secondary characters. As the main character who runs the show, we then move the secondary characters around and sometimes assign them a different role, or write them out of the film altogether.

Good question. I am struggling to get to grips with that as well. I haven't ruled anything out 100% at the moment. I'm trying to stay away from concrete thinking on the matter. In terms of Leo's teachings, whatever I hear him state, I take this as a "suggestion", whether he intends it to be a "suggestion" or a "definite" I don't care. They are suggestions to me. Things to be contemplated and reflected on.

My journey is to be happier within myself without the use of any substance I could become addicted to, abuse, or otherwise develop an unhealthy dependence on. I have a history of doing this with alcohol, cannabis, tranquilisers and sleeping pills. They all became detrimental to many areas of my life and beneficial to no areas of my life, although at the time I thought they were beneficial in temporarily reducing fear, and managing insomnia. The cannabis was actually many years ago. I'm 8 months free of all the above and I'm beginning to feel natural "highs" and natural levels of peace of mind that I never thought possible WITHOUT the use of the above. It was a real shock to see so much behaviour being justified and supported on this forum around what I would term getting a drug-induced, artificial "high", all be it under the term psychedelics mostly. However, I'm also here to learn how be more openminded, less judgmental, and have more humility. It's none of my business if forum members want to use substances to help facilitate their goals and insight. For all I know, they might be the ones making great progress whilst I trudge along slowly and unspectacularly toward my goals (if I ever get there at all). My journey, experiences and willingness to experiment is for me, and everyone else can do as they please. Whatever you decide, I wish you well.

@ardacigin Thanks for this. I am soon to purchase this book. Have you considered writing a book review on here about it?

Maybe I just don't take things seriously enough, but if Leo responded to me by calling me a devil and that my idea, belief or action is devilry I would just laugh. I wouldn't think I am a devil. I wouldn't think I am evil. You are stating that some people with weaker minds might take it personally or actually believe it, or feel coerced to agree with Leo's beliefs? I think vulnerable people can access all forums and vulnerable people are at risk of having an adverse reaction to comments they read online, but I am not sure what Leo can do about this.

I know you do a lot of journals on here. Not looked at them much yet, but whatever you are doing it seems to be working as I have seen a few posts from you that scream high levels of humility and openmindedness. Two things I am chasing. Two things that if I can get right, my life, and those around me, will surely get better.

I'm new here. I've plucked your post out without reading every single post in this thread. This is a really funny thread for me. Half this post here of mine probably doesn't directly relate to what your saying to be fair, but I feel like letting some stuff out (my humble opinions). Even though I'm new I thought my perspective might have some validity, even if just a tiny bit! I lurked on this forum for ages. I watched a few "bits" of some of Leo's videos and thought the forum could be useful but that I'd avoid that crazy bald-headed guy in the videos who seems to have gone mad through all the obsessing about self-help books. This was my ignorance. I've still not watched a full video of his so I admit I still probably speak with some ignorance. However, a lot of the small bits of video's I've seen and posts he has made on here, has him strongly advising to keep an open mind and seek input from other teachers. You have used a lot of religious type words in your post but could the following also be true or valid? "Leo's already become a religion" - Are you speaking for yourself or on behalf of many? Your language seems to indicate you are fairly certain that one man has in fact become a "religion". "I see that in almost every post I read here (with the exception of a few members)" - Almost every post? This forum? I've not noticed that. "Many people already worship him and his beliefs" - This can happen with many, many people who run big forums or social media platforms. There might be 50 million more people who worship Justin Bieber than Leo. People want to buy into something, if it wasn't Leo, it would be someone else. Worship him and his beliefs? Or perhaps resonate and are curious? Of course there would be some that buy into his beliefs completely. It's normal. I don't think it's excessive on here for that. At one point I thought Leo was a complete turd. A joke. A megalomaniac. Looking at some of his video's and posts I don't really see someone like that. He is almost indifferent to the praise and indifferent but mostly responsive to the "groupies" who keep making threads asking him a question. "He has his own sermons that we are expected to watch and follow" - Expected? Really? Can you honestly say that? Or encouraged, advised to watch? I would say often Leo is merely making a "suggestion" to watch his videos. "Leo is a fallible human who is wrong almost as often as he is right, just like most of us. He has significant flaws, some of which even he is unaware of. If those statements offend you, then you already consider his teachings a religion. Take the religion out of spirituality and open your mind." - This comment seems a definite reach. You sound like his therapist! You are also telling me that if your post offends me (which it doesn't), then I already consider his teachings a religion. Really? My offense to your post = I consider his teachings a religion? If people (us) are led up some garden path by someone like Leo on the internet, then that's on us. Some of the posts on this thread make out that Leo has some special powers or something. I've never had any dialogue with Leo. I'm hazarding a guess he won't mind if people veered away from this website if they found a better teacher or got bored or sick of his talks, advice and feedback.

But what machine are people using? I hope it's better than the one Jeff Goldblum's character used in The Fly. I agree with you though. I'm skeptical too.

I doubt Leo has developed this far to be concerned with that lol, but you never know. Maybe the 15 year old Leo would answer this

I think it's good for men to also follow and explore their femininity. It's easy to forget this or ignore it. Your title says that men have a fixed role, so does that imply you believe this is the case? It makes us sound like robots, straight off the production line!

This is one of the most beautiful posts I've seen on the forum. Thank you.

Yes! I also read this as..... be careful when you assume things as this can make an ASS out of U and ME.

I'm trying! Seems like a case of one step back, one step forward, then occasionally having a mini-breakthrough and putting two steps forward. I think the trap I keep falling into is being inpatient and trying to change multiple habits and personality traits all at once. Just reading something on this site yesterday (I think a comment by Leo) that we should try and stick with one new habit at a time makes me reflect on the error of my ways. Currently I'm always asking myself... Am I practising humility? Am I being openminded? Because if those two are not right, nothing else will go as well as it could do. In terms of practicalities, I'm really focusing on cleaning up my diet. This is a daily battle. I think I've taken my eye off the ball in terms of how to efficiently build new habits. In my mind and heart I know that getting some "quick wins" and foundational habits in place can help build the momentum but I keep bailing out of my new simple habits, mostly due to poor impulse control and being unable to delay gratification.

What amount of hours means workaholic? What's the maximum hours I can work a week and not be a workaholic?

I for one hope you don't leave the forum. There seems to be a few threads at the moment with the theme of "see ya later". I know we have to look after our own wellbeing and this forum, like probably all the others, can probably seem vicious at times, and wonderfully compassionate and openminded at other times. I'm new here, and am slowly trying to change the way I develop and make myself a better version of me. In my ideal world this forum would help facilitate people of all faith's and beliefs to flourish. I'm not aware I had to agree to any one belief when I registered? I don't know who the fuck God is right now. I know I believe in something. I know there is more to life than just what we can sense. When I first lurked around this forum I thought Leo was possibly on the brink of suicide. I thought he seemed massively mentally ill with a drug addiction. I felt sorry for him. I thought who the fuck does a 3 hour vlog, and then who the fuck would do loads of 3hr vlogs like it was normal. I thought this place was full of nerds who type a good story but probably live in complete hell and misery. I think different now and finally signed up. I still think Leo is an acquired taste somewhat, but I know there is huge wisdom in him and others that I want to try and tap into. I am still battling what could be my ignorance around psychedelics. People claiming to have wonderful experiences when off their face on drugs. Well that's what drugs are for I thought? To get shit faced. To feel good. To fill a gap of emptiness. Why are these people thinking they are somehow different to other people who misuse substances. Anyway, basically I am becoming more openminded and less judgemental and this forum is teaching me that. I've seen people posting about being really hurt by the content and discussion on here. Some people stating up front they are hurt and others kind of lashing out and making a statement about disappearing or leaving, either temporarily or permanently. Perhaps the people quitting the forum have as much to offer as the ones who ride everything out and stick around. It says something for the human condition and perhaps it has to be this way, that even on a forum like this, discussion can quickly turn into a "my belief is better than your belief, let me hammer that home until you accept it". This forum is like the world at large.... some people claim to have "The Truth". Who is crazy and deluded? Well that depends on who you ask..... you ask on this forum you will probably get a different answer than if you ask a health professional. Who is right? I don't fucking know actually! I'm trying to keep an open mind.... Man on the street claims to be God.... get's hospitalised.... man running a self-development forum claims to be God (I know it's not as simple as my comparison here!), get's respect and adulation. Man on the street takes mind altering drugs to feel a certain way gets told he is wrong and maybe a junkie, man on the forum doing the same thing ,doing it for self-development, and it seems like doing drugs is as normal as making yourself two slices of toast for breakfast. I'm on this forum to try and take myself up a level (or 10). It's obvious the human condition still hunts us down and takes control a lot of the time. We are all infected with this thing called the human condition and probably the best we can do is control the symptoms (perhaps, I hope there is more to it than that). I'm new here remember, I will make lots of mistakes I am sure. I've clocked a few members who post all the time. One post of theirs is compassionate and complaining others are too harsh. Their next post is toward someone they disagree with and they seem almost like a complete different person. One post is compassion, the next is harsh judgment and what almost seems like oppression. I'm not going to mention names because that would be pointless as we all probably do it to one level or another. I know I do in life all the time. I hate doing it, but it's still happening. I believe character traits nearly always depend on circumstances. If I can minimise this and have consistently favorable character traits in as many different circumstances as possible, then I'll be happy. How many of us are this example below? Favorable circumstances, people seem to do what I want and agree with me... I'm all powerful, all forgiving, all compassionate, all understanding Trying circumstances, people not doing what they are told, people offending me.... I'll be a cu**, fuck them, they will pay. How dare they. Once I have dished out the required punishment, and justice has been done, i'll slip right back to Mr Nice Guy. I'll be Buddha again. I am at peace! As Russell Brand would say "Be nice and don't fuck anyone over".

I am a recovering alcoholic. My alcohol addiction and other addictions were a big part of my rock bottom. In terms of rock bottom, my personal view is that you know rock bottom when you hit it. For me it was almost like some kind of enlightenment moment (of course it wasn't but that's the only way I can describe it). I realised "the game was up" and that I was in deeper than I thought. I knew I needed help. I knew I needed a new direction. I knew that many aspects of the current ways I am living needed to be surrendered and/or changed. I am not saying that you have to have a rock bottom to make positive change, but for me, it was the catalyst for change. It also made me realise that I am too limited to recover just on my own willpower and my own mindset. I needed help. I needed to radically look at all the things I was not doing. All the things I was either consciously or unconsciously ignoring. I also believe rock bottom to be a very personal thing. What is rock bottom for one person, will not be rock bottom for another. A rock bottom doesn't have to be mega dramatic such as going to prison, nearly dying, or some other highly traumatic event (although it can be). For me, rock bottom is a very internal experience, that involves a deep level of surrender and acceptance. By the time I got to my rock bottom it was actually a huge relief. It involved huge failure in my work place, a lot of shame and embarrassment, but at the time, relief that the previous way of living was going to be abandoned and dismantled (to a degree). I was lucky. I had a plan in place already. I think I sensed my rock bottom was close. 8 months later things are now very different, but I still have my bad days and I still have a lot of shit to work on. There is still loads of surrendering to do. Working on being disciplined, open-minded, humble, compassionate, forgiving, looking after my physical, mental and spiritual health is often a daily battle. I make mistakes and have elements of poor performance / spiritual practice every day. This makes a lot of sense of me. For me that's like building some foundational habits. To start to do things EVERY day. Start small and build from there. Yes! This the same thing studentofthegame is saying above (I believe).

Love this.

Surely this would just make them even more insecure? If I am to avoid someone it would need to be for more than them being insecure. I certainly wouldn't avoid at all costs. That makes them sound like they have a deadly virus or something. It's harsh. I don't agree with her advice.

Hey there. I am gradually incorporating meditation into my daily life. I don't know why I am somewhat resistant to it as I believe all the positive things people say about it, and I've experienced it as helpful when I have got myself into a routine with it. I can never make up my mind whether I want to practice a more "nothing" meditation, or whether I want to focus and contemplate on something. Regardless of spiritual advancement, I thoroughly believe meditation will aid my attention and concentration. Some times I feel like I have an adult version of ADHD.

I think if my house was on fire and I could only rescue 2 values it would be openmindedness and humility.