Lister

So you are saying that there is no organism that has a nervous system and emotions that suffers emotional turmoil, disease, pain, suffering, just so that you can have a bacon sandwich? And that this "other" sentient being is not also a fragment of you? How do you feel about slavery? Do you think that doesn't make any difference to you or us? Maybe you would like to go back 500 years when slavery was "normal", imagine yourself in that position where someone is exploiting your life and energy and taking a way your freedom to live? Maybe you would like for us as a species to return to that state? Of course, it's doesn't matter, right? So I'm sure you will be ok with that situation where you are trapped in a pig enclosure and cannot move your entire life? It's all ok, isn't it?

Play the long game in life. Play to win in the future. Set your situations up now to mature for later when you need them. Plant seeds in the garden and cultivate a garden slowly with next season in mind so that you can harvest a little bit at a time in the future. Stay on track, forget about little investments, keep things open for possible changes in the future. Don't live for today, work today for the future and your future will harvest the fruits of your labour in the past. That way you can have an endless supply of good things in the moment that you worked for in the past.

Yes. We can just let a gangrene leg rot because the self loves it anyway. This is not enlightenment, it's just a trick that stops the mind from making value judgements. The result feels very nice and people get attached to it and call it enlightenment. But it's actually a dissociated state that causes more harm to the person and others around them until they snap out of it.

That cannot happen. Too many people inhabiting the planet now. I suggest doing some real research rather than reading opinion pieces that romanticize and play blue mental gymnastics just so that it can continue to feel justified about eating meat. I've never seen a keto advocate be able to think beyond blue.

Yes lots of things harm the earth. Animal ag (a completely unnecessary and cruel industry) Is responsible for the greatest amount of harm at this time. The UN estimates that getting shot of animal ag would cut greenhouse gas emissions by upto 80%. That will save the planet overnight. Veganism isn't about not engaging in harm, it's about reducing harm as reasonably as possible. What else have we got at our disposal to end the western world's number 1 killer and save the planet? Veganism is the only option we have.

It sounds to me that you weren't interested in having a mature debate, but only venting your assumptions. You might want to clean up the way you talk to other people during an oline discussion.

Ok.

All of these points have already been addressed by myself and Dr. Essylesten. What you have done is not actually digested my argument, but created your own version of an argument you imagine I am advancing. Watch the video I posted. That will answer all of these points. For example we have evidence of indigenous tribes who smoke but don't develop heart disease. How is that possible? Because they eat a plant based diet. I already said that grass fed is irrelevant because we now have mechanisms that cause the disease. All meat contains neu5gc, TMAO, heme iron, and inhibit the bodies ability to create nitric oxide. Sticky blood from cholesterol is just a player, it's inflammation and lack of nitric oxide that creates oxidized LDL that is the cause of cardiac events. You failed to also address the United nations position that animal ag is the biggest contributer to greenhouse gases.

You're actually guilty of making the error you accuse me of : generalizing. We're talking about veganism as a way to sustain life on the planet, and a whole foods plant based diet as a healthy choice. Vegetairans and vegans do indeed get sick. But vegetarians and vegans also eat junk food and oils. We need to seperate out the evidence, and this is why Essylstens work is critical, because he has shown that a whole food plant based diet is healthier than an omnivore, vegan or vegetarian diet. We can of course chose to destroy our health on a cheap and lazy vegan diet. But it's not our individual choice to continue to eat meat with the systemic issues we face because of animal ag.

Why am I looking at things wrongly? Ok, so a little bit of red meat once or twice per week may not do much harm. As in the case of the blue zones okinawa. But for end stage heart disease patients this is a big deal. The best stats we have don't show any problems eating plants. But being yellow as you are I assume you're interested in the bigger picture? How are we going to sustain nearly 10 bn people using animal ag?

Do you know anything about statistics? Do you know that most people over the age of 60 have heart disease, and a vast majority of those people are on statins to manage it? Most people in the West, who eat the western diet develop dementia, heart disease or diabetes (or all 3). Do some research, most of us don't live a long healthy lifespan in comparison to populations who consume a whole foods plant based diet.

@SgtPepper Its not just 2 clinical trials. The entire body of literature points to animal products as the culprit. The entire scientific community are almost at a consensus. Does any of this mean anything to you? Would you like to do some shadow work? You're not convinced with 2 clinical trials, but a few opinion pieces and some false info about the Massai on a pro meat blog are enough to convince you? Humans have indeed been eating meat for millennia. That's an appeal to tradition, which is another fallacy. Heart disease and cancer have always been a part of our history. Especially for the Massai (average life expectancy of 41 years : they just don't have the time to develop full blown heart disease and be killed by it - but it's there) and the innuit. It's not about high quality meats, we have the mechanisms now regardless of the quality of the animal, all animal foods contain TMAO, neu5gc, heme iron, and destroy artery function which creates oxidized LDL cholesterol which is raised by consumption of saturated fat. Your beliefs about b12 are wrong. The livestock need cobalt in the soil to interact with intrinsic fact of to create b12. You're taking a synthetic b12 supplement whether you like it or not. We can convert ALA to DHA no problem. The only people with an issue have genetic issues that can now be screened for and fixed. You didn't respond to my environmental points.

@SgtPepper Where do you think your pasture raised animals obtain their b12? Even they cannot make it anymore because there is no cobalt in the grasslands. It's given to them from the farmers. So yes, you're taking a synthetic b12 supplement when you eat your steak. It may not even be cholesterol that is an issue, but cholesterol is a player in heart disease. Animal foods destroy the ability of the body to create nitric oxide, so endothelial cell and oxidized LDL is what create heart disease a long with the inflammation caused by gut bacteria that create TMAO. There is also a molecule found in all animal products called neu5gc, which is found at the site of plaques and in cancer tissue. Epidemiological evidence show the more animal products we eat, the higher risk of disease. The science is so clear that it's almost mainstream now. Canada were the first to not have their dietary recommendations dictated to them by industry. It's only a matter of time now.

@SgtPepper Everyone should be supplementing with d3, not just vegans. The dha thing is a genetic polymorphism issue for conversion, another red herring.

@SgtPepper Essylsten has 2 clinical trials proving his diet reverses heart disease. Where is the disconnect here? We cannot argue with science. There is no argument on the environmental issue. The science is clear. Both the UN and the world health organization agree that animal ag cannot be sustained. Grass fed is a red herring, we cannot feed 10bn people on pastured livestock. I'm going to suggest the who and the UN have a better view of the big picture than a farmer and a nutritionist connected with the Weston a price foundation.

Just because something is not wrong, doenst mean it should be acted upon. Do you think we could get away with murder after enlightenment? Non duality as far as I can see is the end of demonizing certain aspects of creation. That doesn't mean we conflate that with acting it out.

I also believe this argument is a fallacy. Most rodents and wildlife run out of the way of combine harvesters. They all have ears and all want to survive, and a combine harvester can be heard from a long way off. Plus, how many rodents do you see chopped up in your oats in the morning? It would be impossible to seperate grains from the remains of animals crushed by combine harvester blades during a harvest of a crop. The monocrops you mention to do feed most of the livestock we feed anyway. So there is that to consider. These arguments are used by carnist groups to attack plant based diets, but hardly any thought is needed to debunk them.

Watch this video. It's a bit long, but I think it will change your mind as to what is considered healthy. There is a lot of false information around in the media, maybe a portion of that false information is propaganda or just bad science. Who really knows? But supplementation is not an issue, the only thing that needs to be supplemented is b12, and that because we more than likely had enough of it drinking from streams and living in amongst animals in less than hygienic conditions who would share their endogenously synthesized b12 with us.

Would anybody like to comment on the environmental impact of an omnivore diet? There is overwhelming evidence in support of the assertion that animal agriculture the way it is currently structured is completely unsustainable. Therefore I would consider going more plant based our only option as a species growing into structures developed enough to take full responsibility for our environment. Orange couldn't do it, "business as usual" is now endangering the planet.

Hi Has anybody got experience with physical pains after meditation / chakra work and shadow work sessions? The chest pains are sharp stabbing pains actually located around my physical heart, the shoot through my arms, sometimes I feel them in my wrist, fingertips and toes. The left side is more active. I have also had moments of nausea, lightheadedness and irregular bowel movements. I passed a meal that I ate only 11 hours ago only partially undigested. I have been doing deep belly breathing and focusing on the naval to heart chakra in my work. Slightly worried.

@Girzo @Rilles @Mu_ Hi, thank you for taking the time to reply, I will schedule an appointment with the doc as soon as possible just to make sure. I had a blood pressure check a few months back.and everything is excellent, but there is no harm in getting checked again. @Salvijus Hi, it's happening during the day, even now as a write and I have not meditated yet today formally. @sausagehead Thank you for sharing your experiences with this problem, and thank you for the valuable recommendation. I will check David Hawkins out. I just noticed that you posted something about him on the forum as I was browsing, will take a look now. Thank you all, much love.

Conscientious How do I become more conscientious without becoming idealistic? I feel that a part of me is still narcissistic. But I have high level skills and conscientiousness in some areas and low skills and narcissism in other areas. The answer is to learn the skill of honouring and accepting the others perspective, standards, choices, abilities, limitations, level of development, level of spiritual and psychological growth and not imposing my own standards and judgement s onto them, expecting them to be in alignment and in rapport with me and my experiences. It's about honouring the individual where they are, meeting them where they are, understanding the world through their eyes as a seperate person in their own right. I do not have this capacity yet. I need to start to think about how to achieve this. I feel that being more conscientious without being judgemental is the key to success. It is where I am going to claim a lot of personal power, self esteem, wisdom and this will fix my anxiety issues.

Is judgement necessary? I noticed that I made a judgement about someone, their self worth, their place in life, their state of mind, and I noticed that I felt bad. Do high self esteem or spiritually advanced people judge others or themselves? No, they don't. That's why I like them. That's why they don't upset others and that's why they enjoy stability. They don't judge anyone or anything. How wonderful it would be to experience that kind of unconditional acceptance of everything? Goal: Can I let people just be as they are, even when it doesn't suit my wants and desires, when they annoy me at how deluded I think they are, when they reject me because of their preferences? My judgement stems from deep seated rejection from others. Can I accept the fact that not everyone is going to find me acceptable? Is it time to grow up and stop being so possessive and thinking that my perspective is the only true perspective? I need to learn to appreciate the individual, their choices, their desires and fantasies, their ambitions, their unique history, their freedom of expression and freedom to make choices that are right and wrong for them. I need to stop imagining that I should be the centre of the universe, as this is causing crippling social anxiety and feelings of bitter resentment towards people along with extreme fear of rejection.

I've just noticed that everything is loveable the way it is already. How sweet that perception is. Sweet peace and tranquillity and freedom from the unsettled turbulent mind. No more irritation, no more anger, no more blaming, no more fear, no more striving, no more needing. Just being.

I noticed that I love myself conditionally. Which means that I am not and cannot be loveable until I achieve x in my life or with my personality. This means that I will only attract people that also love me conditionally and love themselves only conditionally. I am creating the circumstance of loneliness because I believe I am not loveable now. That is why I get the feedback that I am not loveable now. It's not them, it's me creating this energy. Its become a self fulfilling prophecy that feeds on itself. I have the belief that i am not loveable, and I have the evidence to support that belief - but I am literally creating that evidence in order for my world view to remain fixed in this painful cycle. Be aware of this for now. An answer will develop.