Tim Stretton

I have had this lifelong thing about “fighting for self”. See the links that I have posted on this post. Can anyone tell me why “dating etiquette” anywhere is sooooooo important, and how it is, I am told, different from who we are and what our values truly are? Why is it that doing something in a country just because everyone else does it is beneficial and why do I feel that having my own values and “etiquette” (if one will though I don’t really see them as etiquettes) are regarded by culture as “unacceptable” if my own values are different to the culture that I was born into? Why do I feel that I have to behave in this cultural environment in a way that is different to who I truly am and how I actually and naturally self-emanate from my own authentic heart? Why do I feel that I have to behave as a “gentleman” within the rules of culture instead of my own natural interpretation of the term “gentleman” in 2020 and beyond? How can I behave naturally with my true values of money, domestic chores (I do everything by the way), working, dating, marriage, bringing kids up, etc., and being the authentic “Danny Zucko” with confidence, instead of having to behave like a “T-bird Danny Zucko” where, as Leo puts it in his video, A Rant Against Culture, “it puts us in pigeon holes and straightjackets”? In the YouTube video, LOVE EXPERT REVEALS Why 80% Of Relationships DON’T LAST | Esther Perel & Lewis Howes, at 10:15, Esther Perel states: “For a very simple reason. For a long time, we live — and we still in many parts of the world — live in traditional societies where relationships are clearly codified. There are clear rules, there are roles, there are obligations, there’s a tight structure from which you can’t get out, but it tells you clearly who you are, where you belong, where you’re rooted, and what’s expected of you. And you don’t have too many questions about whose career matters more, and who’s going to wake up to feed the baby, and who has a right to demand for sex. And everybody, every husband knows exactly what they can ask from their wife, and the wife knows exactly what she should not tell her husband, and children know their place, and adults can all interact. All of this was super regulated. You know that exactly on Sunday, you go and visit your family, and that you’ve got to call your Grandma, and that nobody... And you go to church, and you go to any other religious institution where you go, to pray, to be with the community, et cetera. And you know what? Nobody needed to explain to you why it is important. You just went because I said so. And that’s because that’s what you do. That’s what we do. And that’s what we don’t do, because what will the neighbours say? And there is a community that looks over you all the time, and the streets are narrow like that, and everybody knows what’s going on in the neighbour’s house.” If someone out there — male and/or female — can “sell” me “dating etiquette” and tell me why it is best that I can/should “sign on the dotted line” with what the dating and relationship culture says that I heartily can do (sorry deliberate correction) should do for women on dates and later on relationships and why the etiquette really is the best thing since sliced wholemeal bread, I would gladly hear of it. Many thanks. 10 Countries Around the World and their unwritten Dating Habits LOVE EXPERT REVEALS Why 80% Of Relationships DON'T LAST | Esther Perel & Lewis Howes — from 10:15 Grease (1978) - Phony Danny Scene A Rant Against Culture

@PepperBlossoms , Yes I think that you are right. If the kitchen bin/trash needs emptying, my daughter just wraps up the plastic bag and takes it outside to the outside bin/trash just as I do, whereas my mother (whom I love loads by the way) wouldn’t ever do that unless she is the only person in the house. Hmm, find a cooler woman then! It is about me too, and I can choose not be afraid to express that to the woman who wants to listen. I think that she might be hard to find. Thank you. ?

@hyruga, I agree with personal values, but those values of mine needn’t be a main stay, but can evolve and grow with time. I suppose that I am looking for a woman with compatibility with us both, rather than to have ‘aggressive’ compatibility with any culture.

@Preety_India, My values are gender egalitarian. I don’t believe in expecting women to cook or men to empty the bin/trash though there is nothing wrong with that if he and/or she chooses to. I much prefer to discover what my talents are rather than to have my talents told as to what they should be. I prefer individualist values rather than societal ones because I believe it gets in the way with who we truly are as individuals. I am happy to listen to a woman in my life as what she needs in a relationship and to do my best to meet that. And I will heartily share with her just the same. If we are compatible, great; if we are not compatible, okay politely move on. I object to being told who I should be as a man. For example, I don’t mind taking a woman out on a date and paying for her per se if I choose to do that, but when I feel that I have to, and I am told in essence that I am not good enough for a woman until I do so culturally, and it’s over already because I didn’t “toe the line” of culture, then I lose my sense of confidence and self-control. You say, “Because we're not just individuals but also members of a society. So social needs also have to be factored in. ” Why do you think that that is important, and why would I choose it? What are the benefits to society, to her (whoever she might be in my future), and to me? How do you think that society-wide values contribute to where we feel safe in our hearts? What am I personally signing up to? Do I have wriggle room with how I behave in a good way to women on dates and in relationships?

@korbes Try the book The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Don’t be “this” or be “that”, just “be”. You cannot act yourself. Just let your natural emanation flow out. If you run out of things to say, don’t push it, as it’s not natural. Cool man!

I agree with Austin Actualizing, “the one” will match who you are not what you want or she wants. I find that if she wants the ABC or the XYZ, so to speak, she is not for me. I am really taking my time at the moment, even at 54. I am looking for a relationship of genuine commitments without requirements. I am thinking that if the relationship — or the people in the relationship — has/have requirements, then it is not suited and not compatible. If you two are both authentic with each other, there is nothing (much) to work on. Just be!

I simply cannot add any further to the brilliant comment by Sunder (many thanks for that, Sunder!). I think that he is right. I think that we go into too much detail and perfection into relationships when the ‘life is too short’ element is quite sufficient in life. I do feel for you as I have been there myself. I could have rejected my ex-girlfriend for similar reasons, but as I am a gentleman/good man, I didn’t. I loved her regardless of her capabilities in the bedroom. I would say that if you get rejections from women for those reasons, they say, very respectfully to those same women, they are not worth pursuing, as they could quite easily ‘pull the plug’ on your relationship at any moment! You deserve better, in the nicest possible way of course. Take your sweet time and build on what you have and someone will actually love you regardless of what you have or not, and not just what (they want?) you (to) bring to the table. Happy days!

Oh music, music, music. It’s my best therapy ever! It’s also my theatre! I listen and play. Music is great to use to empty all those bottled up feeling and emotions, some of the past, yes for sure, but in a good way in that you get rid and leave behind. It does depend on what you are listening to, of course. If you want to relax, listen to chillouts, if you want to rant and rave on your own to get things out, like using a punchbag, put in something loud and heavy. Some pieces of music are tearjerkers, even unintentional ones. Okay, belt it out and swim in those tears. Even if you are a man, just let them out! I think there is too much stigma in crying males in Western societies, and I think that it’s about time we got rid of that. If you forget the titles and just listen, these is two of my favourite pieces from the same band that I listen to, which for me, is calming and sun-rising (!):

@Shin I have just read. It’s a very good read. I did wonder how homosexuals tackled gender roles.

Name: Tim Stretton Age: 53 Gender: Male Location: Southampton, UK Occupation: CAD Draughtsperson Marital Status: Divorced Kids: 2 young adults at 22 (daughter) & 24 (son) Hobbies: Music (listen | play in jazz band), Science (Astronomy | Geology | Chemistry), Etymology, Philosophy, Cooking, Draughting, Clever/Higher thinking. BEFORE: I read up about the Galileo Affair as a kid, and it astonished me that a society could act in such a way towards people of new developments in science or whatever, such as the Copernican theory of the motions of the planets, and this seemed to be the case also with romantic relationships, a kind of open minds versus closed minds. One day in 1988-ish, my mum had asked me or my dad if either of us would empty the kitchen bin? I thought, ‘Why us? Why the men?’ This was my first awakening to becoming a gender egalitarian. Rather than to complain about matters, I set about doing all the things that I could do around the home and beyond! Being married, running a home, doing my mechanical engineering craft apprenticeship, studying and completing my BTEC HNC in Mechanical Engineering Design, having the kids born during the years of 1991 to 1997 was a very busy time for me. I really grew up during this time! However, the lovely ladies in my life hoped that I could take on all those men roles, or rather, that they didn’t. Having a very polite and loving ‘disputes’ with my beloved mum for 30 years didn’t make it easy. I used to say to my mum and other ladies, “I am me”. My mum had hoped that I would become this necessary Spartacus like night in shining armour, which I didn’t feel that I was at all. To cut a long story short, I had to move on from my wife and start a new life. This was further growing. I was meeting quality people and making many good friends which I still have. I read many self-help books, (Feel the Fear, 7 Habits, The Power of Now, etc.), and I enjoyed the new words that speak many, such as Timshel taken from John Stainbeck’s East of Eden. Amongst my good friends, was someone who became my girlfriend. After our year together, she left saying, “I know who I am”. At first this threw me out of all proportion. Once my bad emotions were clear, I set about the REAL and DEEPER meaning of “being who I am”, if it meant anything. Whilst looking at many YouTube videos for possible answers, I discovered Leo Gura of Actualised.org, as well as Eckhart Tolle, and Teal Swan. NOW: I am taking up more exercise, and seeing how I can be rid of the bad feelings and emotions that have become, and grow even more. To understand more so what love in a romantic relationship can be about so that I can get it ‘right’ next time around, and especially to be in a higher place of thinking so that I can make better growing decisions. I am also working on the idea of enlightenment, spiritual or otherwise. What I am noticing, is that compared to others that I have read on this webpage, ‘Spartacus’ or not, my life isn’t that bad at all really. Whilst I ‘wait’ for that special someone — which I am not in a hurry at all — I look forward to seeing what I can do even further for my continuing growth, and of course, borrowing and sharing many a philosophical word or two from and to others on this forum. Indeed Self-actualisation just might be the key to my better happiness, assuming that I don’t have it already. Cheers, all.

@Natasha Great video. I think I have learned something here. It sounds as though we don’t need those traditional idealised images of what we (previously) wanted; hourglass figures, knights in shining armour, etc.

If I have this right, or wrong. 1 — I read/watch/listen on various webpages and people about the acceptance of “who the other person in the relationship is”, that we should not change them, etc. I read/watch/listen on-line that we are invited to understand the idea of “being on the same page as someone else” for the relationship to get a chance to work. 2 — However, we men (and women too, I am thinking) are all here to improve our personal development and our mindset to help attract the opposite gender, assuming that is, we want that. I have read and noted Leo’s invited comments on his message, “To All Struggling Males: Stop Playing Victim!” Many thanks for that, Leo! 3 — I am also aware of the idea of gender roles versus (?) the ever-changing roles of men and women in romantic relationships since, say, the feminism movement in the last 100 years or so and gender egalitarianism. 4 — With this, we are also invited to the idea of spiritual enlightenment and the idea of being conscious and separating the mind (the ego) from the body (the real self, the Being), that is (if I am right), “who we are” just is, that actually, there is no “changing” nor “non-changing” about our non-egoic true selves anyway, that I couldn’t change anyone, even if I tried to (!), that only those unconscious people who had a problem with their ego/self-image would feel changed! 5 — In spiritual enlightenment, self-actualisation and personal growth, we seem to be invited to the idea of not caring whether or not we are ourselves or someone else, the ultimate freedom, that there is no “page” at all to share with anyone, that we are at one whole with the universe because the freedom comes with the non-defence of “who we are”, that our “pages” (should they exist) are merely notional with no walls/boundaries etc. and that we are not imprisoning ourselves in whatever “I am ‘me’ and I will not be changed!” mindset we decide to have. THE QUESTION: “Who we are” (or not!), self-imprisonments (?), self-development, gender roles/gender egalitarianism, spiritual enlightenment, going beyond our “pages”, thinking outside the box instead of inside the box (No wait a minute! What box????): How can we marry up all this knowledge for romantic relationships so that they have a better chance to work? And if not, why not? Many thanks in advance for any enlightened comments from anyone, including Leo, should he want to.

@bejapuskas I have a similar story to you. My mum asked my dad or I if one of us would empty the kitchen bin. Dad and I had always done it and Mum didn’t much, though she did so much more that I did! At the time, my sister wasn’t at the house. I thought, ‘Why had the men been chosen to do this? Was it important?’ I challenged my mum, though really, I was challenging ‘the system’, what I now see, rightly or wrongly, as the collective ego. After I hung my head in shame, this led me to be a master of doing things all round the home; all jobs will be ‘unisex’ in their approach from then on, and this would also apply to dating and relationships in general! I had become a gender egalitarian and I have done everything to the best of my actual ability ever since. For example, when I was married at the time, my ex-wife would, want to take over the cooking that I was very happily doing, so that I was the one using the toolbox and she wasn’t because “that was a man’s job”. This was a common activity, to which all/most of the women were united! Putting that aside for now. By labelling myself this person, I had inadvertently ‘imprisoned’ myself because I was defending it! I was defending the ‘me’ that I wanted to be, so I had ‘built’ thick walls around me as if to say, “Don’t change me! I am who I am!”, as if I was only on that page and nowhere else. A now ex-girlfriend did the same and I was then on the outside looking in. ‘Ah’, I thought once I had grieved, ‘it doesn’t pay to do that does it?’ Don’t ‘be this’ and don’t ‘be that’, just ‘be’. End of ego, singular or collective. Now, I am looking to (attempt to) combine all those elements in my question, and to find that special lady who would be willing to join, and we can then build our rose garden together and grow together!

@bejapuskas & @JustThinkingAloud I can also relate to my parents, not so much my dad but my mum, who for 30 years has hoped that I could be, not only a gentleman — which is great to be by the way — but also some lady’s knight in shining armour, that I should treat the gentleman as almost ‘necessary’, that I should play ‘by the rules’, that I should do things for women so that they don’t, like paying on first dates, etc. I love my parents very much, but perhaps my mum hasn’t really appreciated my way of seeing the world (and I think that that has been shared by many women other too), whether or not that is a good thing at the time. I think that there is one thing being a natural gentleman, and that being a gentleman as some kind of ‘requirement’. I presently disagree with the latter as I think that it’s not ‘true’, if you see what I mean. That doesn’t stop me from being good and gentlemanly towards women. I also think that it’s not just ‘who we are’, but also how we use the ‘who I am’ element, and only we ourselves can decide to either build a thick brick wall around us and say ‘I will not be changed!’ where there is little or no room for manoeuvre, or better, I think, to demolish those walls that ‘imprison’ us and allow ourselves to grow without defending our direction. These days, I try not to define myself as I used to, but to look back at what I have become instead. If any future woman in my life feels changed by my outgoing ‘no box at all’ thinking during our relationship, that’s her decided personal imprisonment, I am thinking. Perhaps I am wrong. ?

Some woman decide (either that or they seem to know no other way) to live by ‘the culture rules’ when it comes to dating, even though it is now the year 2019! Culture could be described (as Leo has put it on YouTube) as the ‘collective ego’. That suggests that those (unconscious?) women who never text first are acting out their egos instead of allowing their own true selves to emanate from them. I would like to say, “Leave them be”, but perhaps they are all like that. We all grow and evolve over time, and that’s healthy, but just let the real conscious non-ego ‘you’ at this time to emanate and just ‘be’ (instead of being ‘this’ or being ‘that’), and the like woman should, in theory (ha ha!), come into your life. That way, you wouldn’t need to concern yourself about the details. With respect to those ladies, if they cannot/won’t accommodate a opportunity when they see one, why would you want to bother with them? Would you not want a woman who can evolve with you over time? I would! If you haven’t already (which I am sure you have, just that you didn’t mention it), ask her questions about her.

With instrumental music, I can ‘invent’ my own stories and images with music. This one is perhaps my favourite of all time, Jean-Michel Jarre’s Oxygène Part II. This piece sends me to infinity!

I listen to this one often. Indeed, I have Steve Reich’s boxed set, Phases. I also have Philip Glass’s Music in Twelve Parts.

I know, it can take time for things to heal. If you haven’t already, get out there and find something to keep focussed on, perhaps something new. Find something to grow with, such as a new activity. It doesn’t have to be a new job or career. Mine was playing keyboards in a band, a jazz band, for the first time. A fully enjoyable experience! In that way, you will also meet new people along the way, not necessarily a new girlfriend, but it will open up to a wider circle of your life and experience, and maybe, you might discover a new talent that you never had before. It worked for me. If you want to get ‘angry’ by staying conscious (though if you are conscious, it doesn’t matter one way or the other) where no-one gets hurt, that is one way to do it, especially when she hears that you have suitably grown since she left!

Leo, thank you. I will take in what you advise. I am 53 now (July 2019), and I will say that there are some unconscious women out there. I suppose this message is for them too. I have two kids, and I have “older” physical traits by now, some I can work on and doing already, and some I cannot. I am no Spartacus, and I don’t pretend to be! We are the men we can only be after all our efforts. I think also that it also comes down to acceptance. In the meantime, I am just happy and lucky that I am alive and reasonably healthy. Life is far too short to worry about the small stuff! Finally, I am aware of that good old message between couples for those who celebrate it on this planet: marriage vows. I could be wrong, but I think that they speak volumes. Cheers!