Nivsch

@Nabd Because Netanyahu didn't want to negotiate with the Palestinians out of personal fears to his position probably. The far-right wing is of course a problem too. I agree. And no. The responsibility to someone to not become so toxic is always within the someone! Because if you say that hamas is just a chemical reaction of the consequences, then you must use the same logic to Israel policy and exemp it also from any responsibility because you now using a deterministic (anti free will) point of view - which is we can agree a problematic pov.

@Nabd Netanyahu made hamas stronger and it is a shame of course, but hamas was created because of hamas. You want also to blame Europe for creating Nazi germany or that the responsobility to take feeling of offense and unfairness to the extreme toxic version is found in the violent side itself? And if you say they arent responsible then the other side is also not responsible by the same logic of the deterministic point of view which is problematic of course.

Did they steal something before the Arabs started a war (that was civil in its character) against them? I didn't find an evidence for that. The Jews lived nearby them but didn't stole a private land. And as long as they have no state, they cannot have a "collective" land on their own.

Last time I was paid by IDF was in 2009 and only 100$ a month to buy food in my base. Maybe I missed out the IDF leader I will search for it.

@Nabd Sounds you are reacting now emotionally. Don't know how to answer to that. Nothing is personal and there is no competition here. I already answered about the Jews coming thing. Don't know what to add more on top of that.

Not even close to "two sides". Only Palestinians use lethal violence deliberatly against citizens (and 0.01% of the settlers). Only Palestinians refused to improve their situation. Only Palestinians have never had a state on their own. Its very interesting why they couldnt establish a state during the last centuries? They had far beyond the required time. Maybe they don't really want to? Maybe they want to stay the victims? What if this is their collective psychological tendency to begin with?

@Leo Gura Ok but now this isn't hapenning. To establish a settlement 5 km near your city is still not to kick you out not even close. It is not very fair, but it is light years away (in my opinion) from an opression you must kill children and women to deal with. This is absurd even to think about it. They were offered to end the settlements expansion near their cities ones and for all - 100 times. And refused.

No. Actually it shows me you don't want to face what I said.

@Nabd Not at all. YOU guys say now that oct 7th is a self- justified action Israel cannot do nothing to prevent but to deffend itself physically. Is that sounds fair in your opinion towards the Israelis? What I say is that an existance of a state you don't like is NOT a justification to terror because this is too barbaric childish justification to use because Israel won't go anywhere. The truth is that the Palestinians are completely free and sorverign in their area and they have to take responsibility to take the offers for a state they have got countless times and refused.

Roughly every country in the world has been created from some version of this.

@Nabd Almost every state ever started from a dynamic of new people that have settled there. This is by definition.

Then there is no real opression here. Doesnt it seem problematic to you that the explanation to oct 7th is that Israel exists (and not really the settlements as we now see)? Because then oct 7th is self justified and the Palestinians have a complete exemption from any responsibility.

@Nabd There was no state here to begin with. Jews came here to a semi-vaccum. 2. Jews have an historical connections that you just decide to wash out.

Then from this logic the terror is justified from the very fact that Israel exists.

These are slogans surrounded by warm air. This is language manipulation. You are invited to break down those high (and also misleading) words if you want to discuss seriously.

But nobody kicked anyone before the Palestinians decided to start a war and almost won (wikipedia). Only when the Jews were cornered and almost killed, only then they started to play dirty occasionaly but at this point this is a jungle. And in the jungle everyone will do anything. This is an uttetly CIVIL war. The whole thinking process is being shut down by the ancient brain.

But they got countless offers to have a sorverign state.

I agreed that it has to stop but does it really a physical opression? It is not like we settled in their villages and cities, but only couple of km around them in parts of the open area. I am still not convinced they are "opressed", not even close to the level someone will want to kill women and children because of that, but I do agree there is an unfairness that has to stop.

But that is the thing. Nobody did that before the Arabs decided to start the war and almost won. Only than, the Jews started to play more dirty and occasionaly. Not as a method. The ones who started the chain of trauma were the Palestinians.

Can you give example(s) to this oppresion? A really tangible one. Because really what I hear in this thread is never a clear explanation but rather always something very vague like an aljazeera's soundtruck.

A friend of mine who is serving in Gaza say to me right now that every home and every building he entered to was turned out to be a terror infrustracture that included tunnels gates and holes served to store weapon.

In 1948 the Arabs started the war when the Jews were mostly in deffense and after almost lost it all and only then changed tactic in which neither of the sides was an angel in this Jungle conditions. I understand that the terror today is because of Israel and the terror before Israel is just a natural course of a conflict. Ok. Doesnt make so much sense to me but everyone can think whatever they want. Not gonna push anything.

@Leo Gura I thought about violence of forceful stealing in those years and searched for it but could not find it yet. If you or someone else knows about this you can share.

In the other hand, serious terror activities against the Jews here were also in the 1920s and 1930s, Israel went highly towards the Palestinians five time with five different agreements in the 1990s and the answer was the 2nd Intifada, and couple of more times with peace proposals during the 2000s which every one of those deals means automatically stopping settlements expansion forever, but the Palestinians refused, and refused, and refused.

@Danioover9000 I agree with most of your things you wrote here. The problem though as I see it, is that, hezbollah can still attack on the ground with dozens of Israeli killed (even if IDF is well spreaded there already) and also and maybe the main problem now, to shoot an anti tank missiles against civilians which proved to be a well known tactic of him. This is why I don't know if anything but a preventive attack on him can remove this threat to the residents who want to live there safely.