Nivsch

@Inliytened1 The self is not anti truth but the way one see the self.

https://x.com/RonGerlitz1/status/1961111758212399582

This isn't true. The Zionist movement was divided in its opinions from the very beginning as seen in its responses to the partition plan of Peel comission in 1936: " The leadership of the institutions, including David Ben-Gurion, Chaim Weizmann, and Golda Meir, supported the proposals of the Peel Commission, at least the partition proposal. Opposing them stood a coalition of communists and left-wing figures (who supported a binational state), the religious (who opposed giving up the ancestral homeland), the Revisionists, the moderate right led by Menachem Ussishkin, non-Zionist Americans, and those who believed that through struggle better conditions could be achieved. The chairman of the Zionist Executive, David Ben-Gurion, was very pleased when he read the Commission’s report, but chose the tactic of publicly opposing partition so that the plan would be presented as British and thus not trigger automatic Arab opposition. He even informed the Colonial Secretary that the entire Zionist movement opposed partition. This stance caused Zionism’s friends to sharply attack the report in the parliamentary debate, and thus, instead of approving the partition plan, Parliament decided only to submit it to the League of Nations. " From the Hebrew Wikipedia article: https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ועדת_פיל

@zazen Take a look at what you just did. You decided that this aspiration of Jews to their own homeland must come with domination. But what if the Two State solution almost all Israeli parties talked about (proof here, translate the page with google: https://mobile.srugim.co.il/article/105276 ) before oct7, had actually been implemented? " Bennett emphasized the fundamental difference between ‘Likud’ and ‘The Jewish Home’ and said: ‘The Jewish Home is essentially the only party that opposes a Palestinian state; all the other parties support a Palestinian state. It is the only party that acted against the release of terrorists, while all the others essentially voted in favor.' " "Zionism" is just a magical word to hide behind and get a dopamine reliefe to help us not to see Israelis clearly.

" Severe Warning – Netanyahu’s and the messianic right’s plan to annex the West Bank includes the annexation of 2,223,600 Palestinians into Israel, the imposition of full apartheid in the territory, turning Israel into an even more violent version of South Africa, and converting most of the IDF into a border police force surrounding Palestinian enclaves, which would become a kind of concentration camps and terror hotbeds. In addition, it would break the peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, shatter the Abraham Accords with the UAE, Bahrain and Morocco, and bring upon Israel a flood of harsh sanctions from both Western and Eastern countries. Simply put, it would enslave all of us, and our children and grandchildren, to the messianic Moloch. Netanyahu is trying to sell a version of this plan to Trump, and he may very well succeed. Two immediate implications: 1. Netanyahu’s illegitimate and criminal minority government has no mandate to implement any annexation whatsoever. Period. 2. A clear statement is required from every party leader and every candidate for prime minister — and I mean you first of all, Mr. Bennett: what is your opinion of this plan? Do you accept it? If not, what are the differences between your plan and this one? — Eran Etzion " https://www.facebook.com/share/p/17Hpn4HDfJ/

Who are Zionists? Am I a Zionist? 🤔

@Raze Not at all. There were hundreds of severe terror attacks in the 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s and especially from the 90s after Oslo agreements as an attempt to derail them, and then the 2nd Intifada precisely after a big momentum of Hebron agreement, Israel-Jordan peace agreement, Y agreement, Gaza-Jericho agreement, Camp David negotiation. The Two-State solution is a bad solution in the eyes of hamas's and main Palestinian terror groups because it pulls the rug out from under their dream to have the entire land. This is why they don't want it. Just like the right wing in Israel that don't like it.

Why do you think Israel deepened its hold in the West Bank in 2002? And why it took it years of suicide bombing inside its cities to decide to finally do so? Do you think Israel wanted or enjoyed it? Don't look at this so dichotomically.

Israel co-operates with the Palestinian Authority for the last two decades in chasing after hamas cells in the West Bank. Just for you to know.

"Israel Today" newspaper

The forum of Liberal Local Authorities includes most of Israel's major cities, except for Jerusalem.

But it tries all the time during the last three decades to get to agreements that will stop the settlements expansion. From Rabin to Barak, through Sharon and Olmert. Even Netanyahu said in 2011 that we need two states for two nations, and we know Netanyahu is the biggest opportunistic who always try to talk to the dominant sentiment of Israelis of the time. This is very tricky these days because all the emotions are now shifted after oct7, and in a sense fear has taken place greatly from the second intifada and suicide bombings. Yet, I have never seen a survey shows most Israelis support the settlements expansion.

This is a wrong extrapolation of what Israelis actually think and based on. Most Israelis have been educated according to Zionism, but define Zionism in very different ways. Whereas conservatives thinks of Zionism as the right of Jews to settle at this land as superior to the right of Palestinians (a problem, not denied), the Liberal education other, more developed sectors have been going through is that Zionism is just the aspiration of Jews to have their own land and be independent from others, when they also aspire to live in peace with their neighbors including Palestinians. How do I know that? Because I live inside this sector for decades. The fact Israel is based on ethnicity is precisely and paradoxically what makes it exceptionally diverse, due to its function as a melting pot for Jews from all over the world, originate in vastly difference cultures and locations and holding vastly different value systems. Weekly surveys from the last year show consistently that what the government is doing during all this year and especially these days is supported by a minority of Israelis. The sensitive situation of Netanyahu with his trial and the way our political method works,makes the most extreme sectors to be also the most powerful in leading the direction of this war, so basically the minority IS hijacking the country right now.

@Leo Gura Becuase at the beginning you wrote they don't care about society, so my point is that I think this shows they do care about society - not only about themselves - but only if done in their own way. If I imagine myself become the prime minister in the center-left democratic sector, I would also want my way to win, yet I would still genuinely want society to be better. I think many politicians, especially in the more developed sectors, want both things, so I see politics, and maybe every field in life, as not purely about selfishness, but rather a mix between lower and higher self do an arm wrestling.

I mean that they think they do good for their group/country/world. For example Trump and Netanyahu are super selfish but they still act upon their belief they are here to make their country better.

But their worldview is what they believe as the good and the right thing

When in daily life do you feel anger but hide it and not express it in a constructive way? Do you please others at the expense of your priorities? Are you sometimes afraid to tell your opinions or values to not get dragged into arguments? Is there any kind of sport you know you really want to do but have not found the time for it yet?

@Hatfort Defensive Shield operation Israel did in the West Bank started in March 2002 after 2 years of almost daily terror attacks and suicide bombing inside Israeli cities, during which IDF has fought terror groups of the PLO and hamas. Up until this day hamas and other terror groups in the West Bank try to gain power, what IDF in a co-operation with the Palestinians authority fight every day to prevent. This continues for 23 years. It is easy to say that everything that happens there is an "oppression" but in reality the dynamics is more complicated and involves both security, restrictions and yes also corruption and an abuse of power by soldiers and settlers what lead all together to an oppressive dynamics. The solution to this loop is to seperate between Israelis and Palestinians, put a strong and secure border in the middle and not to point fingers on one side or another showing why it is the 'greatest evil' and the other side innocent and good. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Defensive_Shield

But the way people see the word "Zionism" here is the ideology of the far-right that wants all the land. This isn't the definition you and I grew up with. This word is heavily abused and used as a shortcut to the brain to get locked even more tightly on its beliefs depending on the camp you identify with, whether your definition is more or less fair, more or less demonizing, this has become an empty trojan-horse word.

Second to Head of IDF between 2014-2017, Yair Golan.

He weakens the country long-term. Israel did better before him.

The liberal Israel that I know for 37 years is being treatened by Netanyahu, Ben Gvir and Smotrich and their far right sectors more than any external enemy. I wish my country to be splitted to two constitutional countries, because I think the value systems gaps are too wide to be bridged at this point.

Israel was wrong to take this area from Egypt's (Egyptian martial law) in 1967. From then until today Gaza is a problem neither of the sides know how to solve.

Both the current Israeli government's strategy and Putin's one are deeply wrong. Russia attacks are between far less to non selective and far more barbaric and potentially much more harmful in their outcome, but the giant area of Ukraine help its citizens to mobilize easily and be relatively protected. Whereas in Gaza, even selective attacks (though not smart or careful even when the price of the attack is obvious) similarly to US and European coalition operations, will cause huge damage due to the exeptional density of the area.