Nivsch

I still don't understand this activism game against US and Israel going on here. Sure it is fair to understand all the West's flaws and immaturity and mistakes, to investigate those and learn from. But when doing so in an emotional, extrapolated, generalized manner, do we really go according to those tier 2 values we appreciate so much? Do we really spread Light and understanding? Do we really help the sides to soften and the peace to come faster? Or that we just fall to the very similar traps at the end of the day?

Two quotes from Lapid's (Head of Israeli Opposition) article I liked the most. Worth a separate message. The full article in the message above. I LOVE his thinking here.

Head of Israeli Opposition Yair Lapid calls for a political agreement between Israel and Lebanon that will bring the Lebanese military to sit north of Israel's borders. https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-823764?fbclid=iwzxh0bgnhzw0cmteaar2tunjk2w_sjy-nqfzsdjdlycahpv1pnnibtezefa_ykos8tzaawbqd3ag_aem_a-i639sw2oqkxczhfar2wg

After such trauma you wouldn't ended up with any other conclusion other than make your own home in your own terms and a land you are deeply connected to. This is how psychology works and its not wrong but right. Would you let others decide to you where to establish your state? Then you would feel even more humilliated, empty and meaningless. Israel is an authentic healthy outcome of the situation but got out of control and in this sense I am not denying the problems Jews have caused too.

Many groups among the Jews have not planned or wanted it. It is that the more religous ones agenda has overcame the rest.

I mean that I identify myself among the 30-40% of Israelis who are Liberal Europeen in their values.

+1 ❤️

Don't lose hope. The half liberal will split and establish their own little Europe in the North, Coastal plain including Tel Aviv, and the Mountain-shelf.

Which way will be better? And why this way won't help to seriously understand the issue?

Even that came after both sides escalated each other for 30 years from the 1920's and what Ben Gurion did was of course unjustified but after such long time of such ping pong, both sides will be much less moral to one another and won't be at all in the same state of consciousness they were in at the 1920s.

The Palestinians see IDF soldiers as evil but they can't see that a big part of what IDF is doing is becasue of fear from the terror the extremists among them do against Israelis. Its a strange loop.

And why their bias is more triggering and difficult to you, then the other side's biases? Because you expect much more from the Israeli side to be the 'mature adult'? When I argue with Right wingers in some Whatsapp group, I feel often anger on them because I expect they would think more broadly on the situation whereas on the Palestinians I am not angry because I am not identify with them so I don't expect.

Isn't most of it out of fear and just not knowing better? For example before this war I still thought about the conflict in a more dichotomic way. Even though I wanted Two State solution I still thought on WB in security lens only, in a way that we just need to defend ourselves from the treats come from there. I mean, it was only partially true, but it wasn't from bad intentions at all.

I agree with you. I am Israeli and can't grasp the extremism of some settlers. It is totally foreign to me. This is like two different countries at the same time. From where are you?

Israelis go to party to hang out and forget stress. Nobody in those parties talks ever about Palestinians. You don't have to believe to every video that tries to draw toxic artificial connections 🙂 I was in many parties and social events in Israel. Hundreds. Vibe is totally secular just like you know from your country with no any difference at all. Everything there was just positive and authentic just like parties in Europe. No deeper intentions or meaning to it. I found part of the videos shared here as valid and debatable and to learn from, but the other part immature and deceptive too just as much. I will write at the weekend some of my conclusion because I take Leo thread seriously and invest time to watch his content to deepen my view because it is honest to see uncomfortable stuff too. But no video is a holy thing. Videos are prepares by people out of all emotional and complicated motivation and beliefs. People here have good heart and caring to all sorts of stuff not more and not less than people in your country. People here are warm and will help you on whatever you will need. 90% of them don't want to conquer any land at all like who the hell thinks about this stuff. 50% of them want two state solution. 50% of them are extremely anti Netanyahu and his Messianic government. With all the respect, there are many minorities who are just as important as the Palestinians. Not more and not less. Millions in amounts. They get attention and caring from our society deeply.

The way Israel has responded is definitely a legitimate debate. But aren't 1500 who got killed enough for you? Why do you even have a motivation to minimize what happened? Is this a real mature way to tackle the issue? The level of argumentation and moral development of the conversations here painfully being exposed as not so high.

+1 ❤ To display Israel's establishment as something only one side did to the other without relating to the entire bi-directional 30 years long triggering process both sides caused to each other, is like to put a jar of jam (new word I learn in english) in the microwave and blame only the jam in the exploding at the end.

Yeah many Israelis cannot stand the Messianic government and think their country is on its way to a cliff. But only a tiny minority really move out, though there is an increasing fear to the state's Liberal values and future among roughly Half of Israelis. Just to see the controversy right now about the war is enough to understand that although this is really only the tip of the iceberg.

Surveys from the last times 📊📉 Majority of Israelis support Hostages deal. 55% believe that the war is prolonged due to political considerations. 46% Fear from Civil war in Israel (Jews vs Jews). 46% of Palestinians and 62% of Gazans support Two States solution in comparison to only 35% Gazans in December 2023. A sharp increase in number of Arabs who identify as Israelis since oct7th. For the decency this is only one survey I personally saw about Palestinians, as well as the Israeli Arabs so take it carefully but its interesting.

I agree with you. It may be right though to integrate those videos too. Watch the main sections from each. Now at the 10th.

But there is an experience advantage comes with it in a form of deep familiarity with the society and culture. Dismissing it as just bias is an oversimplification and absurdity.

They are hated in Israel by most of the population at the same intensity they are hated here in the forum.

But I explained you why is that read my long message to you. Hitler is 10^10 miles away in any parameter. Why not to choose another saner comparison?

You can do a research about Green morality of Israelis if you dare (; in other topics that aren't treaten them directly - veganism, equality, LGBTQ. I promise you that if you do the research long enough you will find out that our society is 33.3% 🔵🍊 and 🍏 quite equally and you won't be able to find a color which is the dominant. If you are serious you will be able to rise above the myths and see this. Don't believe me, research yourself.

I agree with you B'Tselem are more developed, but Gideon is an example of and extreme position when there is a problem of tunnel view. But when someone is traumatized by someone else, he will see him in a very negative way and won't care about his or her good so much. That doesn't mean he isn't developed just that his relation to this specific person will be exceptional. For example 4 years ago I had a year of crisis, and in that time my mom and her partner thought they can consult me how to live, how to treat myself and that the diet I tried was dangerous to them (801010 diet, not so extreme). When people get in a way of your healing journey when you are at the most sensitive months, they will necessarily start to seem like semi-enemies (not in daily life of course but only at this specific times) and you will be very selfish regard them. I even imagined how I can hurt people who will disrupt my healing. Whether it be a professional doctor or a close person. It has never come to that level but that was my emotional experience. Lonliness and in a beast like mode. That doesn't mean you are not a developed person just that you face challenges with specific people. The same with nations when are treatened.