Nivsch

@lina @Leo Gura Ok so both sides were to blame quite equally. I tried to search for one side who "started" it but I could not find.

Who is to blame in that?

@Raze I do not so attached emotionaly to my Jewish identity as much as I care about my country values, but here there is a special case when those two things are overlap. That is why if the Jews will cease to be a majority here, then our values are in danger. To sum it up I am more Israeli than a Jew in my identity, but obviously I am not ashamed at all to be a Jew this is a good religion with decent values. Still a social construction and there are deeper identity facets I am more attached to.

❤

@Leo Gura I only like that he goes with his inner 'fire' and truth all the way (even when I am not necessarily agree with things he say) despite all the pressure on him from the outside. The problem is that he is willing to run over and destroy everything and everyone that stand on his way.

@Raze On one thing we can agree and is that Netanyahu is toxic.

Oh yes that was super iconic 🤩 And Neta in 2018 too. To be honest Sweden's song this year was beyond amazing (but the performance was less to my type).

I connected some dots today and realized that what many people here in this thread see as "Israel" is ,mainly, the 5% most far-right sector. I now understand this when I remember all the links and statements being quoted here. Why is that? Maybe those 5% have the highest sound volume, or that the world media wants to focus almost solely on them out of a confirmation bias.

+1 🧡 Liked your points.

The moderate Arab world of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, Gulf emirates, Bahrain with all the problems is still a magnitude better than the Palestinians and have some healthy common sense with which one can actually talk and reach to some mutual understanding.

I agree about this pattern. Less about the degree of injustice (but not negate it completely) because I think they have much more responsibility to their outcome than the "too easy life" they get from this thread.

@Nabd sounds like conspiracy to me. You say here far reaching claims I would ask you to attach links as evidence, because to me it doesn't make sense at all. Netanyahu funded hamas yes. The other things - I don't think so. Not as an official policy of Israel for sure. Israel fights hamas every single day in the West Bank since 2002.

@Nabd Because Netanyahu didn't want to negotiate with the Palestinians out of personal fears to his position probably. The far-right wing is of course a problem too. I agree. And no. The responsibility to someone to not become so toxic is always within the someone! Because if you say that hamas is just a chemical reaction of the consequences, then you must use the same logic to Israel policy and exemp it also from any responsibility because you now using a deterministic (anti free will) point of view - which is we can agree a problematic pov.

@Nabd Netanyahu made hamas stronger and it is a shame of course, but hamas was created because of hamas. You want also to blame Europe for creating Nazi germany or that the responsobility to take feeling of offense and unfairness to the extreme toxic version is found in the violent side itself? And if you say they arent responsible then the other side is also not responsible by the same logic of the deterministic point of view which is problematic of course.

Did they steal something before the Arabs started a war (that was civil in its character) against them? I didn't find an evidence for that. The Jews lived nearby them but didn't stole a private land. And as long as they have no state, they cannot have a "collective" land on their own.

Last time I was paid by IDF was in 2009 and only 100$ a month to buy food in my base. Maybe I missed out the IDF leader I will search for it.

@Nabd Sounds you are reacting now emotionally. Don't know how to answer to that. Nothing is personal and there is no competition here. I already answered about the Jews coming thing. Don't know what to add more on top of that.

Not even close to "two sides". Only Palestinians use lethal violence deliberatly against citizens (and 0.01% of the settlers). Only Palestinians refused to improve their situation. Only Palestinians have never had a state on their own. Its very interesting why they couldnt establish a state during the last centuries? They had far beyond the required time. Maybe they don't really want to? Maybe they want to stay the victims? What if this is their collective psychological tendency to begin with?

@Leo Gura Ok but now this isn't hapenning. To establish a settlement 5 km near your city is still not to kick you out not even close. It is not very fair, but it is light years away (in my opinion) from an opression you must kill children and women to deal with. This is absurd even to think about it. They were offered to end the settlements expansion near their cities ones and for all - 100 times. And refused.

No. Actually it shows me you don't want to face what I said.

@Nabd Not at all. YOU guys say now that oct 7th is a self- justified action Israel cannot do nothing to prevent but to deffend itself physically. Is that sounds fair in your opinion towards the Israelis? What I say is that an existance of a state you don't like is NOT a justification to terror because this is too barbaric childish justification to use because Israel won't go anywhere. The truth is that the Palestinians are completely free and sorverign in their area and they have to take responsibility to take the offers for a state they have got countless times and refused.

Roughly every country in the world has been created from some version of this.

@Nabd Almost every state ever started from a dynamic of new people that have settled there. This is by definition.

Then there is no real opression here. Doesnt it seem problematic to you that the explanation to oct 7th is that Israel exists (and not really the settlements as we now see)? Because then oct 7th is self justified and the Palestinians have a complete exemption from any responsibility.