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@zurew Thank you for the analysis. I will try to understand fully the formulation I need to sit on it for a while 😊

@zazen There is no bullying at all, except by extremists, but this is right to any place in the world. There is a ground area restriction. If you want to be empirical you should not puff it with warm air and saucy words.

And then all their "situation" or "reasons" are just being thrown out of the window, exactly like that the Nazis motives are irrelevant when they commit such atrocities.

@zazen The comparison is wrong because: 1. Murder isn't comparable to settle peacefully without violent intent and don't show me the 0.01% extremists. 2. UNRWA is in my impression connected to terror more than just through bad apples and I wrote what I think above.

@Karmadhi I am sure most Israelis if will be asked won't like the settlement ever expansion and won't want to arrest children sometimes. The "Israel" being seen from this forum lens is only the deep right wing.

@Karmadhi I agree with you on the settlements problem that creates an uncomfortable situation to the palestinians when they want to mobilize within the west bank. Also I agree about the searches and arrests at night and about cases when a young teen that is being arrested ones in a while which is not justified to my opinion.

@zazen 12:120 = 10%

@zazen Yes this is our far right wing. Represents less than 10% of our population.

You must be jocking. The Allied are also nazis in the eyes of the nazis. The immune system is the virus in the eyes of the virus. Choose a side based on your healthy common sense. You can't differentiate between health and illness with logic, you must be intuitive and connect with some higher common sense. This "woke" radical relativism can bring nothing but hell.

So all the posts about unrwa connections to terror are wrong? I see many like that. But heard things (honestly I remember vagualy) in the last decade and before too. Every time this name pops up with some direct or less direct connection to terror. No chance this is only some bad apples.

@LSD-Rumi But this organization is responsible for deadly education that teaches killing and jihad, then it is best to look for another organizations or to create something new. Why to insist on a comfortable illness? It is better to suffer a short them uncomfortable if we want to heal the situation long term. This is how life works.

I don't understand the apartheid accusation. Because first of all, Israeli Arabs get full individual as well as collective rights and freedom here. About the Palestinians in the west bank, I agree that their area is partially sorverign and partially shared with the Israelis settlements, when IDF has to be in guard to secure those settlements and the west bank borders. Ok. But when is the apartheid here? And if one thinks there is apartheid, what is he/she expects? To not guard our borders?

He knows better than all of us. He is the son of former hamas leader. I know him from 2016 when he became more well known. I assume he is still hiding and careful. Their brutality didn't bypass their actual own people too in prison, and in the most sadist ways, as he described here and in his book.

There is a kind of low intensity war there between Israel and hamas (not civilians) too since 2002. What do you think putted an end to twice weekly suicide bombing attacks came mostly from West Bank in the 00's? Your statements are very unfair and misleading.

From top do down: 1. See but the center of Israel is really dense too. And especially in the northern of the strip there is a big area of open air but also around the cities, not to mention a coastal plan. To say this is Ideal? No. But how Israel is responsible for that in your view? 2. Blockade of what? Of marine and air ways. This is true. But do you dare let the terror organization who is the authority there this accesses? The water issue is more complicated and I will try to give you a link to an earlier discussion here. 3. Money is not a problem. Gaza is very rich. The problem is how the money is distributed. Who is to blame in that? 4. About the barrages I didnt understand I will read your links before I can answer.

This is appalling and turns my stomach to see this cruel distortions. Cherry picking can make even the sun to look dark, with focusing only on sunspots. I have never saw Israeli children sing things like that thats why I am sure 99.999% of Israeli children are not like that. I grew up here from birth and I know Israelis for 36 years, and this kind of cruelty manipulation comes from aljazeera is equivalent to hamas mantality just without the physical violence. @Heaven I am totally agree with you here.

I think that if you zoom out to the average of the truth : distortion ratio of a stage RED-blue side, and compare it to the ratio of the blue-orange-green side, the results will be in the favor of the latter and in a very big gap. When you grow up in democracy from birth you will take it for granted, and then actually the different "creature" will seem to you more sexy, and you will tend to symphatize with him more in many cases. And then of course to give over weight to his claims. Not that it is bad to be interested in very different cultures, this is a beautiful thing and has its purpose, but when in such tricky conflict like we have now, this is a double edged sword.

No such a thing. You have a goal and an emotion behind this "opened your eyes". Say for a second we try to cut off our emotions and be only rational, firstly what will happen is that after 2 seconds your mind will say "no way, I am not a robot" and quit it. But say you could be only rational, then you see the truth most clearly right? Wrong. The logical mind is thousands times slower in its capacity hold information, and actually these are emotions that hide much more information in them in the subconscious mind. The only way to be "objective" about this conflict is to have another bias which isn't one of the sides but rather a more elevated one like unity, love, caring for the whole system's long term health etc. But even then, when one of the sides seems in your opinion to hinder or go against this goal then you will judge it. But you are entangled in this, and when you do this you participate in this. Then you will have to surrender and understand better the other side's motives and be more balanced for example in how you divide the responsibility to the situation between the sides. But then you might feel you are again too neutral and you will resist it and want to be more active again. This is an ever growing up process involving emotions and biases all the time.

Sounds a fair approach to me ok I agree with you here 👍

There is no such a thing. I think truth is, in a sense at least, a war between biases that cannot be forcefully bypassed, but to be found graduately through the bias process.

I don't think so, and I also think this is not fair to speak out against a person who cannot respond right now. I think @Lila9 shared many good and quite significant points from her own and from links too, and showed willingness to understand how the convesation should be in the improved form, but the emotions and the inertia got her to maybe add one link too much after the thread was already saturated from such things. I try to understand in a general sense what Leo felt and I think I can to some degree, but specifically about @Lila9 I really think she want to learn and change the way of approaching the conversation if need to.

@Karmadhi I thought you meant that hamas meant only to target soldiers (and not Israeli citizens) but after read it two times again I see you meant only to Gazan citizens that you think didn't want to target Israeli citizens. Ok. So I am taking back the "denial of 7.10" part.

@Karmadhi Sorry but you do a symmetry between I even ashamed to repeat on what, and also basically deny 7.10. I cannot comment to this kind of thing. Think what you want. A reasonable discussion it is not.

I see another thing. The court is right about the problems displayed by him and that Israel has to be extra careful in the next steps. But, its decision generally does justice with Israel, because though considered SA claims, still didn't gave them a real or at least not an urgent plausibility, at least to how I interpret what I heard. If the court thought that SA claims are really plausible, it would demand Israel to stop or sustain the war, what didn't happen. So if to sum it up: A fair decision of the court towards Israel. In my opinion Owen Jones is stuck on an emotional tunnel view and hope he will grow out of that. But this doesn't mean he isn't right that there are serious problems in Gaza because of the war. I try to be fair as much as possible here after Leo's request but also cannot hold inside my feeling of inproportional focusing only on one side's responsibility to the situation.

The problem with this approach is that in that way the whole notion of responsibility is completely diminished. Why? Because everything, but everything, can be "understood" if we study for enough time the psychology behind it. If we will investigate it enough, we will understand why Nazis started the war and killed 6 million Jews, gays, 'disabled' and more groups. That is the point when 'understanding the other side reasons' paradigm exposes its limits, looses its meaning and starts to eat itself. From those things we can conclude that every action of anyone, must also be examined under the responsibility lens. Nobody is exempted from it. No matter what is his stage of development and how his emotions or mental health or state is.