Nivsch

But this war's goal is to eliminate hamas completely. This will necessarily take so much more time than the oct 7th attack. Then of course the damage will be far higher.

I dont know Leo. There are so many terror targets and booby traps to attack built over 18 years for IDF and we all know hamas tactic to get mixed with civilians. Maybe 1.5 : 1 ratio is unavoidable. Maybe it could be better. Maybe not. I really dont know the answer. I think that if my government wanted to kill indiscriminantly the ratio was 20:1 (and not 1.5:1). I can agree that the exaggerated material damage is maybe affected by the fact that the goverment is very radical in relation to Israel's average. But about the casualities I tend to think differently than you. IDF could not bomb anything but then invade a terror base full of traps in every neighborhood built especially for it for 18 years and fall like cards in front of it.

By "best intention" you mean that my government really try to not harm civilians and still not accurate at all in the outcome? Or that you mean that it doesnt really try in your opinion because otherwise the outcome would be different?

@zurew Absolutely agree with you.

Yes this is when this parameter get completely out of meaning, when we know that their intention was to kill anyone indisciminantly, including Israeli Arabs even, as long there are placed in Israel.

I understand it organaized from the best (left) to the worst (right) when we want to see both the most positive blue and the most negative orange which is the best outcome.

Thank you. I will read again all your main explanation and graphs. By the graphs you added based on this formulation, Israel is placed in the extreme careful side of the scale if I understood it right, In terms of casualities. Not in material damage there the picture is different.

Can you explain more?

I didn't understand your sentence here.

Do you mean that the solution is to surrender to the chaos and sort of embrace it in a healthy way? I agree this is needed. Western media in the future will must be much more regulated and be allowed to be used more freely according to the development level of the user. AI too will must be heavily regulated.

Do you live in Russia?

👍 Definitely

@lina The radical right-wing government we have for sure influences and worsen the collateral damage, but every western nation attacked like oct 7th would react very similarly.

@Karmadhi They are cherry picked as long as they site almost only radical exremists like Gideon Levi and the like, and when they overlook the fair context and dynamics between the sides.

Nobody mass murders anyone. There are 10,000s terror targets to attack and the casualities are 15,000 civilians and ~10,000 hamas ratio of 1.5:1 that when fighting with cynical gerilla organization this is of course expected.

@lina Without knowing the details in the cherry picked linktree I can answer in general that of course dehumanization will happen after such a trauma and the celebrations in Gaza in oct 7th and after 30 years of agreements and negotiations followed by only more terror. Start to see the whole dynamic rather than to blame almost only one side. Every western country would probably react the same when needed to eliminate a terror organization who mix itself together with civilians in Rafah but also everywhere in Gaza.

@Karmadhi Nobody destructed their society or culture. They could have became to like one of the Emirates. Israel has not searched any war at all and has invested on technology and on a smaller and smaller IDF (shorter and shorter service length for youngs) and was in a conception we won't need to enter Gaza. The naiveness of Israeli IDF commanders line of thinking has been broken in 7.10.

@Karmadhi from top to down: I didn't see anywhere that hamas agreed to release them before the ground operation. It doesnt make sense, it would erase their efforts overnight. Please find me a link that proves that. Israel didnt cause "far more" I disagree with that. Also the context is important if not the most important thing. The Allied also did a tremendous damage to Germany. Nobody just kicked anyone out of the blue, in 1947 a totally civil war in its character has started and from then yes, its a whole Jungle. But Jews were almost only in deffence first until almost lost. Also, displacement and building in your territory although problematic is still not even close to suicide bombing and being hostage in hamas tunnels. 2nd intifada started right after a decade long of signed agreements between Israelis and Palestinians supposed to give them a lot of hope. The Palestinians physical area in the West Bank is much larger than central Israel due also to greater surface area due to the mountainy landscape by the way an another parameter I though about recently.

@Karmadhi Of course hamas will fully recover in the course of 2-3 years if Israel won't finish him. About the casualities, this is the harsh reality of the dynamic of war between two sides when one of them reject all the peace offeres gave to him and caused Israelis a 30 years long trauma. You can say "but the settlements" and yes we also have our responsiblilty and Bibi is also an obstacle to peace. Would it be enough even if we did everything right? Highly doubt it. Israel very existance causes a religious short circuit in the mind of fundamentalist Muslims that maybe really nothing would help. I heard Chris Hedges lecture in the blog and it made zero impression on me and totally biased and emotional and naively blame gaming and profoundly failing to understand Israel's roots and essence.

@Heaven Tonight two hostages were rescued by IDF. Only now I read it. From Hell to home.

No. It is just that one chooses to define one side as the "understood" (emphaty) and the second side as the "responsible". This is a completely arbitrary decision stems from emotions and personal preferences. And after choosing that, he or she confuses this with "reality". But in (real) reality both sides can be understood if you learn their psychology enough, and both of them are responsible.

Sure, when they don't really know Israel and don't really know Palestine and the differences between them, this what happens.

There is no intentional murder of civilians here at all. Not even close. I can agree about some sort of collective punishment (intentional more or less) and about the influence of the far-right wing government we have now on the degree of the damage in Gaza. But honestly every western country would react pretty much the same with minor changes. The preaching I see in videos including in the video on Israel in Leo's blog are not make any impression on me. When you don't acknowledge the equal responsibility the both sides have to the dynamics of the conflict than you are not fair and just moralizing and doing yourself a dopamine massage.

@Karmadhi Ireland should ask itself why the rest of Europe don't think like her and grow up 😝

The responsibility is mutual and intertwined to a gordian knot between the sides. Every side need to work on his own. But this isn't the game being played here in this forum and we aren't stupid.