Nivsch

Hurry up to not loose them. We can meet if you want. @Leo Gura The more I read the more I think both sides are equaly problematic and to blame in the cycle of mutual dehumanization that lead to unhumane actions from both sides, out of the fear each side feel about the other.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/flashes/629199

@Karmadhi Part of the soldiers sadly are affected by our far right wing irresponsible politicians and the results are as we saw. As a result of this there is a real crisis of discipline problems the head of IDF, Hertzi Halevi, a very moderate person, treats them. The whole legend of an intentional "genocide", however, is a total myth.

There is mutual suspiciousness between Jews and Arabs what is natural, so I agree with you that both sides need to be careful on the other side's sensitivities. I think differently than you. This is a very fuzzy situation because this area was actually taken from Jordan in 'six-days' war in June 1967, but Israel still hasn't applied its sovereignity on a big chunk of this area. Don't forget that in Jordan too there are palestinians I can say too are under an "occupation" of the Jordanian rule, but it won't be a honest definition. Another factor is that Israel has really no choice but to secure this area for obvious deffensive steps because of the distributed settlements there that make IDF to stay in the depth of the field. I can't say that I like this situation but an evacuation of these settlements is not really an option. Barely to evacuate Gaza in 2005 was a very difficult task accompanied by huge resistance. Another factor is that IDF and the Palestinian Authority co-operates in security missions together and in intelligence resources to prevent hamas growing there, because hamas is kind of enemy to the Palestinian Authority because it won't hesitate to take the charge from them in force, just like did in Gaza in 2007.

But there are 2 million Palestinians right now in Israeli cities and villages, living alonside the Jews. Why don't you ask them too what they think? The dehumanization cycle between West Bank or Gaza Palestinians and Israelis is a positive feedback involving both sides.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rko91pwlc#autoplay All Hospitals used as military bases of hamas (detail inside).

Its OK @Karmadhi even when we aren't think the same 🙂

Exactly how I feel!! The fact that Bibi does all wrong in Gaza what cost Gazans lives, does not contradict the list you just mentioned with which I am 100% agree.

@Bobby_2021 I have answered you directly. The right wing is mostly for the settlements (see reality is nuanced unfortunately) and sometimes still wanted two state solution that would end the settlements expansion (no new settlements will be built in the palestinian state area). The center and the left are anti settlements. I can say the same about you or if not you (nothing personal), many people here who developed a negative bias against Israel because such and such medias, and now they will always filter what I say through those lenses. This is why a mediated reality is a dangerous thing.

I am not identified with the settlements and not for them. But the right wing pushes it.

@Bobby_2021 The center and the left were protested against the law from 2018 but it didn't help. In reality they get full civil and individual rights as this law is semantic and didn't change anything practically. But if you insist based on that to call Israel an appartheid then OK if it helps you feel in the moral side.

@Bobby_2021 Oh now I understand. The definition of Israel as a Jewish state is the appartheid 😆 I was hope to some reasonable conversation here but I was wrong. The fact that Arabs get full rights doesn't matter here. Ok man so, appartheid. Whatever you want 👌 Appartheid. Its yours.

I was in the IDF. Not a troop but still got a gun like everyone. From what I have been tought and educated there, this isn't true at all. To say many IDF soldiers has not lost their sanity out of revenge emotions? I can't say that because this, however, is true. I wish it wasn't.

Provide a reasonable example for that or don't drop dehumanization slogans to the air. There is racism. No apparheid. I added an hour long interview of an arab muslim in the thread I opened she is here from birth and disagree with you. You know what leave it. Think what fits you. Anyway the discussion here devolved into a competition and not truth.

Two years ago my anxiety had a big flare up that was constantly accompanied by health anxiety, such as for example - fear that a certain very harsh movement in my body or my head could harm or even kill me (because maybe do something to the brain etc) so what I felt is that I must do the movement, to see that it didn't hurt me, and then I relaxed. There were such unrational anxiety attacks all the time. But then, one day in the winter of 2022, I was at my Dad's house, and then again such a thought came. But this time, I really gave in to the thought and agreed to accept the position of the thought's content. Ok anxiety. Maybe there is a 1% chance that this bad thing could happen. Then a magic happened and the anxiety just dissolved and was no longer threatening. The sense of danger is gone. From that moment I began to see the thoughts differently, and to understand that making an alliance with them is the truly right way. I really began to understand that the disturbing thoughts are not against us, they just wear a scary mask, but the solution is actually to unite with them and trust them. Because, a one interpetation I like to take, is that they represent a fear of the inner child who just needs love and a certain approval from us. And the test is to show the brain (the inner child?) that you are willing to sacrifice something from the ego and precisely give the thought something and throw it a bone. It's like he's testing you, deliberately putting a scary thought on you to test your love for him, and you have to be brave and agree with it a little, and after you've passed the test he basically tells you "I've cheated on you, there's no danger at all". Becuse what I think happens here is that returning love to yourself is a challenging process, manifests itself as scary masks that translate to you this fact in a very twisted way. You can never think that something your mind is sending you is against you, because than it will become reality. If you try to oppose your brain, it will give you back more scary content because it is you all the time! Acting like a mirror. The process still isn't thrivial nor linear, and everytime I see I need to do a slightly different action, what makes sense of course, because widening the limits is always like walking to the unknown.

This thread is not to show how wonderful we are, but to somehow fix an incredibly cruel dehumanization I feel we are going through in other threads here and in the media. Of course the blame is not at all on you but on immature users. Believe me I have my own identity I have built to far away from only shallow nationalistic ideas, but from the moment this war started it gets to me too. I know that maybe my talking are being filtered now to as less important because Israelis are talking from a privilleged position, but this is a skewed paradigm. Jews and Arabs in this whole land (including west bank and Gaza) are almost equal in their number. 7.1 million Jews to 6.7 million Arabs. And also similar in the size of area they live on. The only difference is that Israelis Jews were "unfortunate" to become much stronger militarily because this was the only way to survive against 6 Arab countries, and from that, an illusionary, highly skewed picture of 'oppression' is being created. Don't get me wrong there are indeed big problems in the way Israelis manage this friction I agreed to in the conversations here, but this is still very far from being this A-symmetric fantasy scheme Al jazeera and the like are trying to draw.

@Vrubel If hamas fully surrender - of course.

When Israel let thousands of Gazans to work in its area for years, when Israel proposed the palestinians countless times a solution for the conflict, when Israel built a billion dollars fence to not have to mess with Gaza, when Israel gave hamas hunderds of million of dollars of qataric money for years to help him become more moderate...

I can undersrand the concern when a foregin country (from your view) bombs a small country for a while when after that the aid for this country people started to lessen. This smells bad and listen. I can really understand the conotations it brings. But a good production still doesn't mean reality. When I, at least, take a closer look I see no real "flesh" inside this eco chambered genocide narrative of the anti Israeli camp, and I wrote what I think countless times, so I want to ask you, if you disagree with me, why do you think there is a genocide? Nevertheless, what I can admit is that Netanyahu's policy is highly irresponasible, harmful, cost lives of Gazans, clumsy, selfish, personal survival based and amateur in the way he manage this war. I think on that we can maybe both agree.

This is really true. They are the last ones to stay after everything dry out at the beginning of May. Another photo of them I took today, in Modiin, which is exactly in the middle way betweem the coastal plan and Judea mountain - the mountain shelf.

@Girzo If you would say that they do this strategy BUT Israel is responsible too because isn't careful enough, I would perhaps agree with you. Sounds like you (almost) canceled hamas part and that is your right but it is hard to make a reasonable discussion in that way.

Do you add to this equation the human shield strategy of hamas, or you think they are innocent and dumb that just surrender their physical inferiority and let IDF kill them? Right. A mistake of IDF. Right. No.

Leo I understand this whole issue is so complicated right now and you don't have to agree with me, but what would you do if your friends and their family members you know from Las Vegas were hostages in mexico and found in a risk of executing, when their parents, friends and siblings are blocking the border to reduce aid from entering the bombed mexico in order to put much more pressure on mexico leaders - when they know much of this aid is abused and utilized by mexican terror groups for themselves - until mexico leaders will agree to release their loved ones. Would you just arrest them with all of your power? or that you would round the edges, and let them partially block the passage because you identified with them deeply?

@Exystem Your camp always discusses so maturely 🥰