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Even that came after both sides escalated each other for 30 years from the 1920's and what Ben Gurion did was of course unjustified but after such long time of such ping pong, both sides will be much less moral to one another and won't be at all in the same state of consciousness they were in at the 1920s.

The Palestinians see IDF soldiers as evil but they can't see that a big part of what IDF is doing is becasue of fear from the terror the extremists among them do against Israelis. Its a strange loop.

And why their bias is more triggering and difficult to you, then the other side's biases? Because you expect much more from the Israeli side to be the 'mature adult'? When I argue with Right wingers in some Whatsapp group, I feel often anger on them because I expect they would think more broadly on the situation whereas on the Palestinians I am not angry because I am not identify with them so I don't expect.

Isn't most of it out of fear and just not knowing better? For example before this war I still thought about the conflict in a more dichotomic way. Even though I wanted Two State solution I still thought on WB in security lens only, in a way that we just need to defend ourselves from the treats come from there. I mean, it was only partially true, but it wasn't from bad intentions at all.

I agree with you. I am Israeli and can't grasp the extremism of some settlers. It is totally foreign to me. This is like two different countries at the same time. From where are you?

Israelis go to party to hang out and forget stress. Nobody in those parties talks ever about Palestinians. You don't have to believe to every video that tries to draw toxic artificial connections 🙂 I was in many parties and social events in Israel. Hundreds. Vibe is totally secular just like you know from your country with no any difference at all. Everything there was just positive and authentic just like parties in Europe. No deeper intentions or meaning to it. I found part of the videos shared here as valid and debatable and to learn from, but the other part immature and deceptive too just as much. I will write at the weekend some of my conclusion because I take Leo thread seriously and invest time to watch his content to deepen my view because it is honest to see uncomfortable stuff too. But no video is a holy thing. Videos are prepares by people out of all emotional and complicated motivation and beliefs. People here have good heart and caring to all sorts of stuff not more and not less than people in your country. People here are warm and will help you on whatever you will need. 90% of them don't want to conquer any land at all like who the hell thinks about this stuff. 50% of them want two state solution. 50% of them are extremely anti Netanyahu and his Messianic government. With all the respect, there are many minorities who are just as important as the Palestinians. Not more and not less. Millions in amounts. They get attention and caring from our society deeply.

The way Israel has responded is definitely a legitimate debate. But aren't 1500 who got killed enough for you? Why do you even have a motivation to minimize what happened? Is this a real mature way to tackle the issue? The level of argumentation and moral development of the conversations here painfully being exposed as not so high.

+1 ❤ To display Israel's establishment as something only one side did to the other without relating to the entire bi-directional 30 years long triggering process both sides caused to each other, is like to put a jar of jam (new word I learn in english) in the microwave and blame only the jam in the exploding at the end.

Yeah many Israelis cannot stand the Messianic government and think their country is on its way to a cliff. But only a tiny minority really move out, though there is an increasing fear to the state's Liberal values and future among roughly Half of Israelis. Just to see the controversy right now about the war is enough to understand that although this is really only the tip of the iceberg.

Surveys from the last times 📊📉 Majority of Israelis support Hostages deal. 55% believe that the war is prolonged due to political considerations. 46% Fear from Civil war in Israel (Jews vs Jews). 46% of Palestinians and 62% of Gazans support Two States solution in comparison to only 35% Gazans in December 2023. A sharp increase in number of Arabs who identify as Israelis since oct7th. For the decency this is only one survey I personally saw about Palestinians, as well as the Israeli Arabs so take it carefully but its interesting.

I agree with you. It may be right though to integrate those videos too. Watch the main sections from each. Now at the 10th.

But there is an experience advantage comes with it in a form of deep familiarity with the society and culture. Dismissing it as just bias is an oversimplification and absurdity.

They are hated in Israel by most of the population at the same intensity they are hated here in the forum.

But I explained you why is that read my long message to you. Hitler is 10^10 miles away in any parameter. Why not to choose another saner comparison?

You can do a research about Green morality of Israelis if you dare (; in other topics that aren't treaten them directly - veganism, equality, LGBTQ. I promise you that if you do the research long enough you will find out that our society is 33.3% 🔵🍊 and 🍏 quite equally and you won't be able to find a color which is the dominant. If you are serious you will be able to rise above the myths and see this. Don't believe me, research yourself.

I agree with you B'Tselem are more developed, but Gideon is an example of and extreme position when there is a problem of tunnel view. But when someone is traumatized by someone else, he will see him in a very negative way and won't care about his or her good so much. That doesn't mean he isn't developed just that his relation to this specific person will be exceptional. For example 4 years ago I had a year of crisis, and in that time my mom and her partner thought they can consult me how to live, how to treat myself and that the diet I tried was dangerous to them (801010 diet, not so extreme). When people get in a way of your healing journey when you are at the most sensitive months, they will necessarily start to seem like semi-enemies (not in daily life of course but only at this specific times) and you will be very selfish regard them. I even imagined how I can hurt people who will disrupt my healing. Whether it be a professional doctor or a close person. It has never come to that level but that was my emotional experience. Lonliness and in a beast like mode. That doesn't mean you are not a developed person just that you face challenges with specific people. The same with nations when are treatened.

@Karmadhi I want to try to comment to you in a constructive way and not tomato-throwing which I think I am ok in and always try to improve, but after Leo's message I want to take it into account and respect this to deepen my awareness. I Don't want to feel I talk too much so I stop now and write you in the night (here).

If I may share my position. Every disagreement, argument, investigation, deepening etc is totally OK, interesting and desirable as long as the game is fair and there are no generalizations.

What do you mean? Feel its a mix depends on how triggered one is. But who isn't in defense? The question is only on what and how elevated is the value one defends. No interest at all to defend everything Israel does, but far from it. I am not identified with the right wing in general. If its ok to ask you what your main motivation here is?

I am willing to take the issue fluidly and even go half way to the other side and try always to improve the quality of my messages. However I see my function in this thread to provide insights from Israel's complex brain (this is what the twitts are for, for example) rather than any other source that only can provide actions the body decided on eventually. I admit I am not familiar enough though with the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

Whatever satisfies those youtubers Green dopamine.

Where does this guy live? Lets assume randonally (since I don't know at this moment) France? Ok, then French people do terrible things like rape. How do I know that? Because statistically every day there must be at least one case of rape there. Thats it. I made the case. When use this kind of tactics, I can claim infinitely, to the negative or positive direction, about any country or group of people just however I want and it will be true. After that, those people like this guy will not have to be surprised when Israelis in the media (AKA propaganda) will say only the good things about Israel, because this is the only way they feel they can take action to balance the situation and achieve a fair outcome. It happens in the media as well as here.

Nice to know the Democrats didn't lose the trust despite Netanyahu. I am sure Lapid or Gantz's governments would have chemistry with the Democrats and Europeen leaders without any problems. Lapid and Macron are some sort of friends even.

Ironically 75% of the mainstream media here is in the Liberal side and talks on the hostages more than the war itself, on the need to think strategically and to make alliances in the middle east and to keep the bi partisan connections with US.

Part of Israelis of course the same.